Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[LaurieB]

@Where'sMyWhite

@Laurierace Are you aware of any studies (I’d have to look at Grayson’s studies again) or if necropsies attempt to look at pre-breakdown conformation and movement?

Think there would be value in including some sort of still radiographs+photos along with movement photos/videos/imaging of a horse before they start at a track or ??

Just musing to see what more could be done that realistically might be able to highlight horses with a higher predisposition to breakdown before it happens rather than after.

WMW, many many racehorses have conformation flaws. It’s the sale horses that look perfect, and many of them have had surgery to make them appear that way.

If someone were to decide that horses who didn’t have perfect conformation were at too high a risk to be racehorses, racing would shut down. Right then.

As would eventing and show jumping, if the same decision was made regarding their entrants. The majority of horses, of any breed, are simply not conformationally perfect.

When new stallions retire to stud, I go have a look at the ones we might be interesting in breeding to. More often that not, I look at these very accomplished racehorses and think, “You ran so well with that [flaw] ?! Well okay then.”

We’re all trying to breed perfect horses but it seldom happens. Mostly it’s a matter of deciding which small flaws you can live with.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@LaurieB Thanks I know most horses aren’t ‘perfect’ for sure. Was musing this more because the racehorse may be putting more stress on the foreleg (since that is where most breakdowns occur) but in re-reading your reply, horses that jump at the higher levels, whether it be in the show ring or out on a course (cross country, hurdles, steeplechase, etc) do stress their forelegs as well.

Just wondering, and it sounds like not really a significant impact, the ‘imperfections’ are as it relates to catastrophic breakdowns.

Anyone aware of any actual study or more in the anecdotal category (which I don’t dismiss for sure ).

[Palm_Beach]

There are no studies as you suggest. Logic dictates form follows function yadda yadda yadda but those of us who have been around have seen horses with beautiful correct conformation who are hard to keep together and those with pretty wonky conformation who win on heart again and again. And my personal opinion is that shoeing and fitness/conditioning and stress frequency contribute way more to unsoundness than plain old conformation. Horses can be mismanaged to the point that they don’t stay sound.

[INoMrEd]

@Where'sMyWhite

A link to this same KTLA report was posted in 578

Thanks sorry I missed that…

[Cammie]

Old article from Sports Illustrated that’s worth a read again. 26 years later and still struggling with the same issues.

https://www.si.com/vault/1993/11/01/129693/the-breaking-point-a-rising-toll-of-racetrack-breakdowns-has-shaken-public-confidence-and-put-the-thoroughbred-industry-at-a-crossroads

[Pronzini]

@LaurieB

WMW, many many racehorses have conformation flaws. It’s the sale horses that look perfect, and many of them have had surgery to make them appear that way.

If someone were to decide that horses who didn’t have perfect conformation were at too high a risk to be racehorses, racing would shut down. Right then.

As would eventing and show jumping, if the same decision was made regarding their entrants. The majority of horses, of any breed, are simply not conformationally perfect.

When new stallions retire to stud, I go have a look at the ones we might be interesting in breeding to. More often that not, I look at these very accomplished racehorses and think, “You ran so well with that [flaw] ?! Well okay then.”

We’re all trying to breed perfect horses but it seldom happens. Mostly it’s a matter of deciding which small flaws you can live with.

And some aren’t so small. Take Pure Prize for example. Phipps bred in the purple, 17 starts, graded stakes winner etc etc. Just the kind of elite bred horse that we small breeders are supposed to use. But he was also terribly offset and toed in like nobody’s business. I remember that distinctly because I had a mare with those flaws herself and my advisor at the time suggested that if she was bred to Pure Prize either the legs would be perfect because they would cancel each other out or the foal would be born so crooked with the legs entirely turned around. (It was a joke and no I didn’t breed to Pure Prize.)

Anyway, here’s where he ended up on the soundness list.

https://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/resources/eletter19.1dur.pdf

Seriously his toes almost faced each other in the front…

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Pronzini thanks for that link! Interesting report that I’ll have to mull over when I have a bit more time.

I like that Grayson-Jockey Club do track stallion durability and interesting that it sounds like for some, pretty questionable conformation but still managed to stay sound although I do realize this report is really tracking offspring starts per stallion rather that how structurally sound the individual itself is.

Some of the side notes are also interesting with respect to how long an offspring continues to race based upon their “pedigree” and performance value (ie, of more value to retire to the shed vs continuing to race).

Much to think about.

[LaurieB]

I have no desire to bash a current stallion but one from the recent past, Street Cry, was very incorrect. He had offset knees and long pasterns. He also toed in and was sickle-hocked. And he almost always produced those faults in his offspring. Despite that, he produced a lot of very accomplished racehorses, who ran well despite their flaws as he had done himself.

[Palm_Beach]

@Where’sMyWhite - you will find this article interesting!

http://blog.horseracingreform.com/post/2019/06/18/the-animal-welfare-case-of-michael-pender-the-chrb-is-it-be-commended-with-one-exception

"In fact, in the recent spate of injuries, 19 out of 22 of the horses that died here had sesamoid fractures. It’s a very high-risk fracture. "

There is an article in the PR as well.

[Texarkana]

@LaurieB

We’re all trying to breed perfect horses but it seldom happens. Mostly it’s a matter of deciding which small flaws you can live with.

I feel like this should be a billboard! :yes:

Especially on this site, where there are a lot of armchair critics who are quick to profess a horse is not good enough for them. Horses would go extinct if we left breeding decisions to COTH. :lol:

Casual observation-- some of the most unsound horses I have ever known have been among the most flawless, conformationally. Some of the most incorrect horses I have ever known had long careers with minimal physical ailments. And every scenario in between. Conformation is certainly important, but conformation is as conformation does.

[vineyridge]

@Palm Beach

@Where’sMyWhite - you will find this article interesting!

http://blog.horseracingreform.com/post/2019/06/18/the-animal-welfare-case-of-michael-pender-the-chrb-is-it-be-commended-with-one-exception

"In fact, in the recent spate of injuries, 19 out of 22 of the horses that died here had sesamoid fractures. It’s a very high-risk fracture. "

There is an article in the PR as well.

I read the whole transcript and was appalled. Not only at the total lack of concern for the horse by the trainer and the vet, but by how slipshod the whole hearing process was. They took testimony over the telephone which means that, as far as I could tell, there was no way to examine the witnesses with documents. There was no “proof” that the defendant’s vet witness ever saw the same x-ray that the State was basing the complaint on; one trainer spoke such poor English that they were not even able to establish which leg he was testifying about–and they even brought in a translator.

I don’t think there is necessarily anything wrong with distance testimony, but this was just plain shoddy.

California ought to have a room at every track outfitted for video long distance evidence taking. They could even do it by Skype if they needed to. But they needed a way to examine the defendant’s vet to make sure that he was testifying about an x-ray that they had in evidence. And they needed a better phone connection that the cellphone the former trainer was using.

And after they found the trainer to have entered a horse with a fractured sesamoid that he knew about in a race, they only gave him a 30 day suspension. On appeal, if there is an appeal or an arbitration, no court or arbitrator that I’ve been familiar with would have been happy with this record.

No wonder horses break down at tracks if you have vets who think it’s just fine to run on a “hairline” fracture if the horse isn’t visibly lame.

[Where_sMyWhite]

Can find nothing on Bloodhorse, Paulick Report or DRF at this time…

Hollendorfer has been banned from Santa Anita after his 4th horse death, American Currency, who died after an “accident” on the training track.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/22/us/sa…ies/index.html

I wonder ATM how “useful” this will be for the time being as SA’s last day of this meet is tomorrow and racing doesn’t resume at GGF until mid-August.

Another feel-good sound bite by TSG?

Now on DRF…

https://www.drf.com/news/hollendorfer-banned-santa-anita-golden-gate-after-horse-sustains-fatal-injury?type=

Hollendorfer has 72 hours to vacate stalls.

American Currency sustained a fetlock injury on the infield training track and could not be saved. American Currency was the fourth horse trained by Hollendorfer to be euthanized as a result of an injury in a race or during training, and the 30th overall for all stables, since the meeting began Dec. 26.

[betonbill]

CNN ran an horrific segment about the Santa Anita deaths a few days ago. It featured coverage of multiple accidents involving multiple horses (maybe not all from Santa Anita, BTW). It also featured several shots of the gray horse that somebody mentioned earlier on with an obviously broken leg hobbling around. Don’t know if CNN has a place for statements, but a few from some horsepeople might be a good thing. It was definitely not pleasant to watch and not good for horseracing in general.

Good to hear about Hollendorfer. Maybe he’ll be banned from all California tracks.

[Pronzini]

@betonbill

Good to hear about Hollendorfer. Maybe he’ll be banned from all California tracks.

What specifically about Hollendorfer justifies this? The man has run horses in over 30,000 races. He has 14 or so legal medication overages as I understand it (1 at Santa Anita) and it has not been established to my satisfaction at least that Santa Anita is okey dokie. (Although this last one happened on the training track.)

I’ve competed against Hollendorfer a lot (guesstimate 25 - 30 races) and I am not his buddy. I always thought of him as a crusty kind of guy absolutely driven to compete. My favorite Hollendorfer story is when he won the Kentucky Oaks one year and was back on the plane within hours instead of staying for the Derby. When asked why “I don’t have anything in the Derby.” He’s been known to run out of a graded stakes winner’s circle to a TV because he’s running one at Ferndale. He’s obsessed and you will never outwork him.

But I’ve never got the sense the way I have with others that something was up. He’s an old fashioned trainer in both good and bad ways but he never struck me as abusive.

I’m all for reform but this feels like a firing line.

[ravenclaw]

I don’t know anything about Hollendorfer but wasn’t it Rick Porter that thought something wasn’t right with Songbird? When she was checked out by the vet, there were problems in her hind legs and a potentially catastrophic problem in a front leg.

[dressagetraks]

I remember reading that about Songbird. That the owner kept insisting something was wrong with her, she wasn’t herself, and the trainer didn’t think it was significant, but fortunately they did finally get her thoroughly checked.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Pronzini thanks for replying. I was hoping to get some thoughts from the people who actively train/race at SA.

I only know what I read and I know to take that with a grain of salt. Was hoping for some honest insight from day-to-day people.

It’s easy to make stats look bad if the data is ‘oriented’ to make same.

My thought at the moment was since it was TSG and not CHRB, and Hollendorfer has horses at Los Al, he may move more there along with possibly San Luis Rey. I also wonder if some of Hollendorfer’s horses would end up running under an assistant trainers name.

I wonder if TSG chose this “solution” to deflect attention from the CA legislature.

[ASB_Stars]

@dressagetraks

I remember reading that about Songbird. That the owner kept insisting something was wrong with her, she wasn’t herself, and the trainer didn’t think it was significant, but fortunately they did finally get her thoroughly checked.

After Eight Belles, who can blame him?

[skydy]

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac…stronach-group

In this article is says that the CHRB vets had scratched Hollendorfer’s horses for today and tomorrow, “independently” from Stronach’s banning of him.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I found the CNN “Investigative Report” on YouTube.

Bob Baffert made an interesting comment that I wonder how much “truth” there is to it. He said that Hollendorfer tends to run the “cheaper” horses… ie like lower level claimers vs more of the high end horses like BB does.

While I don’t think that the death of a less expensive horse is really of any less ‘value’ than one that is more expensive, do the lower/mid end horses tend to break down more? If so, it is really because they are less sound or because the trainers and/or owners want to make $ off them and harder to do if the horses’ purses are less than the higher end horses so the horses are raced and pushed more on the track?

Kochees definitely bothered me. A older campaigner that didn’t deserve to break down IMO (but not knowing the details).

CHRB has said they will not release necropsies until the investigation is complete.