Santa Anita- do you think somethings up?

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

actually If you read some of the mortality reports that KY posted, the vet notes the Thyro-L is still used because horses in intense training seem to lack levels of the hormone, not directly linked and should be kept separate from the idea of Thyroid disease.

There is no evidence that it increases performance. Plenty of barns don’t use it at all.

[Palm_Beach]

@snaffle1987

and yet the report says that they were administered it for race days and/or breeze work on some of the horses involved. I find it more interesting to note the deterioration of cartilage in such young animals in such necessary areas.

IIRC, I was the 4 yos with mild degenerative changes, and they were sprinters, which is to be expected. Most of the horses were not administered any meds to work.

[vineyridge]

@Laurierace

If they all bled with lasix how much do you think they will bleed without it? It does not surprise me that high intensity athletes would have cartilage changes.

They were all injured during a race at maximum exertion. Perhaps some amount of bleeding happens in all horses during racing, but isn’t incapacitating and heals quickly. After all, these necropsies are just about the only time horses actually racing can be subject to such a detailed exam.

It would be interesting to know if there are any comparable necropsies in Lasix free countries. Or researchers could stampede mustangs and then shoot one for a comparable exam.

[LaurieB]

@vineyridge

They were all injured during a race at maximum exertion. Perhaps some amount of bleeding happens in all horses during racing, but isn’t incapacitating and heals quickly. After all, these necropsies are just about the only time horses actually racing can be subject to such a detailed exam.

Many racehorses are scoped after they race. Sometimes horses are scoped after they breeze. It’s good to be proactive.

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a horse scoped, but what the vet sees is as detailed as what could be seen in a necropsy.

[Laurierace]

I scoped every horse I ran. Scoped most horses that coughed no matter when or why. I am familiar with the workings of a horse’s airway which is why I am not in favor of a lasix ban.

[vineyridge]

Then do we have any research on post race scoping of lasix free jurisdictions–which is most of the rest of the world?

There are only two possible conclusions, at least to my thinking. One is that America is breeding bleeders at a far higher rate than the rest of the world, or that mild bleeding is just part of the normal TB response to race level exertion and nothing to worry about.

I did notice in one of the report comments that thyroid supplementation should be used only in the presence of clinical deficiencies.

[On_the_Farm]

@vineyridge

Then do we have any research on post race scoping of lasix free jurisdictions–which is most of the rest of the world?

There are only two possible conclusions, at least to my thinking. One is that America is breeding bleeders at a far higher rate than the rest of the world, or that mild bleeding is just part of the normal TB response to race level exertion and nothing to worry about.

I did notice in one of the report comments that thyroid supplementation should be used only in the presence of clinical deficiencies.

Nothing to worry about? Blood outside of the circulatory system is an irritant and the body will react to that irritant. I was anti-lasix until I had to deal with a horse who had a lung abscess due to an undetected deep bleed. If you had to look into the panicked eye of that horse while he was struggling just to breathe, then maybe you would understand EIPH IS something to worry about, regardless of the severity. He did survive but he was forever compromised.

[Palm_Beach]

@vineyridge

Then do we have any research on post race scoping of lasix free jurisdictions–which is most of the rest of the world?

There are only two possible conclusions, at least to my thinking. One is that America is breeding bleeders at a far higher rate than the rest of the world, or that mild bleeding is just part of the normal TB response to race level exertion and nothing to worry about.

I did notice in one of the report comments that thyroid supplementation should be used only in the presence of clinical deficiencies.

Yes there are reports out there. Get on google and read them rather than jumping to baseless conclusions.

[vineyridge]

I just read several papers on EIPH, and all of them assert that EIPH is found in the vast majority of performance horses. It’s just part of the species response to high exertion. It’s also been found in racing greyhounds. One study said it was found in close to 80% of all horses scoped after racing. A paper from South Africa, which I remember reading a few years ago, found that EIPH definitely has a genetic component. The South Africans were concerned that they were using American stallions who had raced on Lasix and then were sold for breeding to SA. Their recommendation was to emulate the Germans and not breed to horses who had raced on Lasix. I can see their point, because, since EIPH is a performance detriment, allowing it to hamper the horse during racing would make that horse less valuable for breeding, and thus reduce severe EIPH prevalence in the breed as a whole.

One interesting stat was that it was found in over 70% of dirt sprinters, 66% of US chasers, but only 14+% of soft turf runners.

So not quite baseless.

I didn’t find many British and Irish studies on the topic, but I’m still searching.

[WinterTriangle]

@Where'sMyWhite

if Hollendorfer does have a BC eligible horse, I’d expect that either an assistant trainer or someone else would take trainer responsibility to get the horse into the BC race they were targeted for. Don’t know the exact wording of the ban to know how widely the ban actually applied… just to Hollendorfer or includes assistant trainers or any horse trained by Hollendorfer within some window of time; just don’t know.

It’s already happened. If you look at Belmont card for Saturday, the Dwyer Stakes race 6 lists Don Chatlos as the trainer of Rowayton.
Mr. Chatlos is also listed as the trainer for Brill in the Victory Ride Stakes tomorrow at Belmont.

Both are Hollendorfer horses as we know.

[Palm_Beach]

@WinterTriangle

It’s already happened. If you look at Belmont card for Saturday, the Dwyer Stakes race 6 lists Don Chatlos as the trainer of Rowayton.
Mr. Chatlos is also listed as the trainer for Brill in the Victory Ride Stakes tomorrow at Belmont.

Both are Hollendorfer horses as we know.

Of course. The owners need someone to train the horses. Hollendorfer is banned, but the horses still need care and staff needs supervision, and need to race if race ready. Stronach can, and will if necessary, demand proof that the owners have indeed transferred the horses to the new trainer in the form of financial documents, bills, cancelled checks, payroll records, etc.

[Palm_Beach]

@vineyridge

I just read several papers on EIPH, and all of them assert that EIPH is found in the vast majority of performance horses. It’s just part of the species response to high exertion. It’s also been found in racing greyhounds. One study said it was found in close to 80% of all horses scoped after racing. A paper from South Africa, which I remember reading a few years ago, found that EIPH definitely has a genetic component. The South Africans were concerned that they were using American stallions who had raced on Lasix and then were sold for breeding to SA.

The South Africans came over here and bought the horses, or had agents purchase the stallions from the US. There has to be a secondary and tertiary market for stallions who don’t make it in the US.

Their recommendation was to emulate the Germans and not breed to horses who had raced on Lasix. I can see their point, because, since EIPH is a performance detriment, allowing it to hamper the horse during racing would make that horse less valuable for breeding, and thus reduce severe EIPH prevalence in the breed as a whole.

One interesting stat was that it was found in over 70% of dirt sprinters, 66% of US chasers, but only 14+% of soft turf runners.

The faster they go, the more they bleed. So of coure sprinters would have higher percentages. I’m surprised at the chaser stat if it’s correct, since they go pretty slow. And soft turf is slow as well. You have to compare apples to apples. The US runs on firmer surfaces, resulting in faster times, and more bleeding. The European tracks are very different from the US tracks, they are usually softer and slower. Are you stats from South African tracks? I know nothing about SA racing.

So not quite baseless.

I didn’t find many British and Irish studies on the topic, but I’m still searching.

[Pronzini]

@WinterTriangle

It’s already happened. If you look at Belmont card for Saturday, the Dwyer Stakes race 6 lists Don Chatlos as the trainer of Rowayton.
Mr. Chatlos is also listed as the trainer for Brill in the Victory Ride Stakes tomorrow at Belmont.

Both are Hollendorfer horses as we know.

Chatlos took over the Oxo horses as their private trainer. Incidentally Chatlos isn’t just an assistant–he won a Breeders Cup race with Singletary about 10 years ago.

[vineyridge]

The stats were from American racing. Timber racing had as high a percentage as chasing.

Here is a pretty comprehensive 2007 article on bleeding that is based on worldwide research. It may be Australian. https://cdn.racing.com/~/media/rv/fi…eiph.pdf?la=en

This is a good 2014 article from the European perspective:
https://www.thoroughbredracing.com/articles/furosemide-debate-why-its-not-such-big-issue-europe/

[Where_sMyWhite]

@WinterTriangle

It’s already happened. If you look at Belmont card for Saturday, the Dwyer Stakes race 6 lists Don Chatlos as the trainer of Rowayton.
Mr. Chatlos is also listed as the trainer for Brill in the Victory Ride Stakes tomorrow at Belmont.

Both are Hollendorfer horses as we know.

How long ago did I post this? Didn’t feel like going back through pages of posts looking for it.

Much has come out since this post IIRC.

[Pronzini]

@Where'sMyWhite

How long ago did I post this? Didn’t feel like going back through pages of posts looking for it.

Much has come out since this post IIRC.

Yeah we’re at the point now where people will start moving horses if they can. Obviously if you own a horse that Hollendorfer also owns a piece of, that gets problematic. There was some talk of Dan Ward taking over but one trainer can’t train for another trainer and Jerry’s license is still active. Chatlos has a division of the Oxo horses so that’s easy. I’m curious about West Point, Kevin Nish and Larry Williams. I’m sure all of them are loyal to Hollendorfer but this is a hard, expensive game. None of them will take off Saratoga or Del Mar while Jerry gets his house in order. It’s also yearling season and no one will give Hollendorfer any money with this cloud over his head.

I hope for their sake, the people making these decisions have something concrete to base them on because they are destroying a HOF’ers career and that won’t come cheap if the bill is due later in litigation.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Pronzini I would agree with you. With this big a cloud over Jerry’s head (TSG + NYRA) who would give him a horse to train even if you thought he was the safest, sanest trainer on the planet when he can’t run at some of the biggest tracks of the summer

Jerry, it seems to me, has scratched and clawed his way up to where he was in TB training and racing with some good horses in decent races at good tracks and not just bottom feeder horses, races and tracks. Almost overnight, that has been destroyed with nothing but, IMO, innuendo since neither TSG or NYRA has said anything ‘useful’ IMO, other than hand wavy implications.

Even if TSG and NYRA were to come out today and say ‘my bad, nothing wrong here’, life for Jerry wouldn’t go back to the way it was for a very long time, if ever.

[WinterTriangle]

@Where'sMyWhite

How long ago did I post this? Didn’t feel like going back through pages of posts looking for it.

Much has come out since this post IIRC.

About 6 or so days ago?
I was just pointing out that you were correct, and also as Palm Beach pointed out, somebody still needs to race and train the horses since they have owners paying bills w/OXO.
This is pretty much SOP as far as I’ve ever seen things done.

I have a lot of respect for “assistant trainers” as most are for all practical purposes, pretty accomplished in their own right, since they handle different locations for big barns that race on multiple circuits.

[WinterTriangle]

@On the Farm

Nothing to worry about? Blood outside of the circulatory system is an irritant and the body will react to that irritant. I was anti-lasix until I had to deal with a horse who had a lung abscess due to an undetected deep bleed. If you had to look into the panicked eye of that horse while he was struggling just to breathe, then maybe you would understand EIPH IS something to worry about, regardless of the severity. He did survive but he was forever compromised.

I think Hong Kong and a few other places have a good policy on this. They have different “levels” of bleeders, and if you have one that is in a higher level category, they aren’t considered good for a career on the track.

Sort of like me, with weak ankle (inherited) and can only be surgically corrected with steel rods…I never figured myself to be a top raquetteball or tennis player, too hard on the ankles. Swimming competitions are great though. Not all horses bred for the racetrack should BE on the racetrack, JMHO.

[Laurierace]

I am not familiar with Hong Kong polices so can’t comment on that but can’t count how many horses I saw bleed a 10 out of 10 that didn’t have a drop visible from the outside so unless it includes scopes every single time it’s meaningless.