Say it isn't so....Inclusive on USEF Drug List

[mvp]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8270290]
Drugs are prevalent in the jumper ring.

For dressage, there are different standards and goals and equipment. Honestly, if we slapped a double bridle on our hunters and rode with a lot of contact, there would probably be a lot less drugging. Instead, we go on a light, light rein in bits with no leverage (granted the mouth pieces of the bits can get pretty significant). It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Even lower level dressage without doubles allows for more contact and control than hunters want to see. Brilliance is desired in dressage, hunters want a brilliant jump and everything else quiet. Wringing tails and pinned ears are just fine in dressage (at least from what I see) but it won’t get you far in the hunter ring.[/QUOTE]

You have a point about dressage horses and their hardware… kinda. But the other thing I notice is that you are allowed to wrap yourself around them and really ride them more. You never have to let go…. and you taught the horse to accept that level of body control from the rider.

But! Relaxation is becoming an increasingly Big Deal in judging at the lower levels, so far as I can tell. You might care (if that represents a horse-friendly training ideal) or you might not (because horses being aimed at FEI levels often aren’t expected to do well at the lower levels for reasons of sensitivity that are needed higher up).

And a dressage pro of mine who converted from the hunters noticed this and predicts that drugging will become A Thing in DressageWorld as well. IMO, all the elements of making the lower levels really, really friendly for the rider who lacks experience, skill and time but has money to spend are there. Just wait: Dressage will reach critical mass in its Industrial Revolution, too, and then we’ll be having the same conversation over there.

[findeight]

Think it was back around 1997 or 1998 when a number of BBBNTs and riders all the way to Olympic levels had horses come up positive for something or other they claimed was in a European supplement they had been guaranteed would not test. For some it was not a first offense and others have come up on the “baddie list” since. AHSA slapped their wrists but there was quite a bit of gossip about it.

Dont assume Hunters are on some isolated island of substance abuse. Any time there is money and pressure to perform, people will seek an added edge. In any sport.

Like others have mentioned it’s too bad Serios got caught and hit with such a stiff penalty instead of some of the more notorious dirt bags with multiple infractions. But they should have known better and broke the rules, has to happen if we want to clean things up.

[bjd2013]

[QUOTE=mvp;8270299]
Don’t you think Brigid Colvin knew she could be acting as the fall guy, should the horse test?[/QUOTE]

My point exactly, one word comes to mind : “scapegoat”. She isn’t just a “mom” signing an entry blank, she’s a barn manager and I would hope a smart woman. You just don’t go around signing entry blanks for horses not in your care. That’s just asking to get in trouble, and these people have been doing this for a while. I honestly cannot believe she didn’t know what that horse was getting to get to the ring. They stated in another article somewhere that he had been in their care while he was coming off an injury.

[huntersgonewild]

[QUOTE=Limerick;8270194]
There have been several GABA suspensions. Winn, Bibby, and now Tommy. This is the first one that has stated the GABA was in a supplement. Is USEF checking (I am assuming they are) the level of GABA in the blood? Surely, the other tests (those done with Carolina Gold in the original USEF study) and the subsequent ones that never said it was in a supplement) would have higher levels than the Serio tests? I am guessing the GABA was a percentage of the Tranquility supplement but the main component in Carolina Gold.

And this article, from 2012, stated that Tranquility contained GABA. So if one were googling more info on Tranquility in 2014…

http://www.dressagelife.net/2012/02/rundown-of-gaba-carolina-gold-new.html

i would like to know when they re formulated Tranquility to remove the GABA. Surely, it was in 2013?[/QUOTE]

According to the maker’s website, it still contains glutamic acid from which the body produces GABA.
http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com/products/tranquility

[mvp]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8270313]
My point exactly, one word comes to mind : “scapegoat”. She isn’t just a “mom” signing an entry blank, she’s a barn manager and I would hope a smart woman. You just don’t go around signing entry blanks for horses not in your care. That’s just asking to get in trouble, and these people have been doing this for a while. I honestly cannot believe she didn’t know what that horse was getting to get to the ring. They stated in another article somewhere that he had been in their care while he was coming off an injury.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but I think Colvin (senior) must have agreed to take on that fall guy responsibility.

[IPEsq]

RugBug, your statement that you can win a hunter round with a 65 (which is true, if everyone doesn’t do so hot that day) does not support your statement that hunter classes are scored on a curve.

[vineyridge]

Just think how many slaps on the wrist Scott Stewart has had in the past.

[caballogurl]

@RugBug;8270279

You made no claims but you spouted off opinions like you knew what you were talking about. Your posts told a different story, however.

Subjective judging isn’t for everyone. But it’s kind of the way of the world. That cute boy in high school that you (royal you…not you, you) had a huge crush on that wouldn’t look your way? Yeah, he was subjectively judging you and you didn’t get any feedback from him. The job interview you thought you did great on and you didn’t get the call back? Yeah, you were being subjectively judged on that as well and they most likely didn’t give you feedback.

I never made any claims to my knowledge of the specifics of how hunters are judged other than a hypothetical example. What I am claiming first hand knowledge is witnessing with my own eyes excessive doping. And everyone wants to defend the hunter ring by skirting around the issue at hand. The best way to defend the hunter ring is by getting rid of the dopers, not defending them.

Life is not fair - I have never argued otherwise. But you are not comparing apples to apples. I have no issue with a horse, rider or trainer winning because they are superior by whatever standard is deemed superior. But you should not automatically get points because of who is hooting for you at the end of your round. My father is a college professor and that would be like him giving my friend’s son an extra ten points because he is a family friend.

I get that it might not be that difficult to guestimate which will be the top five horses in the AAs, Junior Hunters, AOs where obvious mistakes are made and maybe even the first years. But could you have known the scores or without knowing the results accurately pinned the top 5 for the 2014 USHJA International Hunter Derby Championship class, which is at the heart of this whole debate? I know at the $25k hunter derby that I watched a couple weeks ago (albeit I only stayed for a few rounds), one of the rounds, which ended up placing second received, an 84 from one judge and a 93 from another…that is a pretty large spread between scores.

And again this is not a debate about how to score a hunter round. Frankly it is irrelevant other than certain aspects encourage certain trainers to drug. ANY and ALL persons who violate USEF medication rules should be punished and fined - hunter princesses, crazy jumper girls that don’t wear hair nets, dressage queens, western pleasure cowgirls, three day eventers covered in war paint, and the blinged out Arabs. We need to more aggressively pursue violators not less so, regardless of the division.

[caballogurl]

[QUOTE=findeight;8270311]

Dont assume Hunters are on some isolated island of substance abuse. Any time there is money and pressure to perform, people will seek an added edge. In any sport.

Like others have mentioned it’s too bad Serios got caught and hit with such a stiff penalty instead of some of the more notorious dirt bags with multiple infractions. But they should have known better and broke the rules, has to happen if we want to clean things up.[/QUOTE]

The abusers are in every aspect of the sport. Unfortunately, there are not better resources and/or options to combat the known repeat offenders. Either way, I feel the harsh penalties are a step in the right direction as opposed to the softy USEF has been in the past.

[caballogurl]

Hopefully these stiffer penalties will be a warning to future and prior offenders that USEF is getting more serious about cracking down on the abuse. We need to protect those that can’t protect themselves…our horses. We all have to remember why we got involved in this sport to begin with - our love of horses, not ribbons.

As soon as we start venturing down a path where the horse’s welfare is not our foremost concern, we embark towards a very dangerous place. Don’t we all remember that first horse we fell in love with? That horse that made us love this sport? I know I do…and every time I think of doing something questionable or taking some short cut with my horse’s welfare…I think of him :winkgrin:.

[MyssMyst]

[QUOTE=lachelle;8268228]
More importantly… I need to hang out with these Arab people… they seem like a fun crown.

And the creep who violated a minor…that was their first lifetime ban? Wow.[/QUOTE]

I promise we’re more fun than psycho, despite what those rulings indicate. Alexandra Desiderio had no reason to go off like that. So she didn’t win an eq class, big deal. It’s called sportsmanship.

@vxf111;8269617

Drugging to get through a crowded show ground?! That’s a new one…

I know, right? We have a local all-breed circuit here, and a few of the QH’s were seriously not sure about warming up with the Arab Native Costume horses, and those owners just came over and asked if we’d mind letting their horses see the costumes and walk next to them for a bit to get used to it. NBD, they were fine after a few minutes. Getting your horse used to all the weird stuff on the way to the ring and in the warmup is just part of showing.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8270326]
RugBug, your statement that you can win a hunter round with a 65 (which is true, if everyone doesn’t do so hot that day) does not support your statement that hunter classes are scored on a curve.[/QUOTE]

I’m not following you. My horse, who lets say on her best day with her best round ever is an 85 in good company, gets a terrible ride and we put in a terrible round but everyone else does worse? There’s the winning with a 65. Our 65 is the right end of the curve on that day.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8270290]
For dressage, there are different standards and goals and equipment. Honestly, if we slapped a double bridle on our hunters and rode with a lot of contact, there would probably be a lot less drugging. Instead, we go on a light, light rein in bits with no leverage (granted the mouth pieces of the bits can get pretty significant). It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Even lower level dressage without doubles allows for more contact and control than hunters want to see. Brilliance is desired in dressage, hunters want a brilliant jump and everything else quiet. Wringing tails and pinned ears are just fine in dressage (at least from what I see) but it won’t get you far in the hunter ring.[/QUOTE]

Uh, no. The vast majority of dressage rides are at 2nd level and below, and all you are allowed is a plain snaffle and some sort of noseband. No leverage. No twist. No wire. No martingale, no tack noseband, etc. My dressage horses go in less equipment and less tension than my hunters ever did (mostly because I’m a much better rider decades later).

I think what helps more is that a 20x60 m ring is much more boring to horses than a large ring with 8 jumps. :lol:

Wringing tails and pinned ears of irritation will cost you in dressage but it’s not the same One Mistake and Out that hunters have, where a rail destroys the whole round regardless of its other merits. Instead it’s going to be 1-2 points per movement, so it will only kill you if it’s present throughout the test. I’m not saying one is better than the other, only a different philosophy of scoring.

I do think that the transparency in scoring that dressage practices does help with perceptions, where people watch a few rounds and dramatically misinterpret what the judge’s reasons and preferences are. When I showed hunters, my mother worked the show office, so I always got to hunt my score sheets after the show was over, which I always appreciated.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8270367]
I’m not following you. My horse, who lets say on her best day with her best round ever is an 85 in good company, gets a terrible ride and we put in a terrible round but everyone else does worse? There’s the winning with a 65. Our 65 is the right end of the curve on that day.[/QUOTE]

I have been at shows where half the class falls off or refuses and a 65 full of bad distances on an eggbeater horse WAS the best trip. A 65 isn’t going to win the class at Devon-- but at a low level show?! Some days it seems like sh!t happens to everyone at the same time

[jen-s]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8270290]
For dressage, there are different standards and goals and equipment. Honestly, if we slapped a double bridle on our hunters and rode with a lot of contact, there would probably be a lot less drugging. Instead, we go on a light, light rein in bits with no leverage (granted the mouth pieces of the bits can get pretty significant). It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Even lower level dressage without doubles allows for more contact and control than hunters want to see. Brilliance is desired in dressage, hunters want a brilliant jump and everything else quiet. Wringing tails and pinned ears are just fine in dressage (at least from what I see) but it won’t get you far in the hunter ring.[/QUOTE]

Last I heard, doubles were still considered “conventional” albeit uncommon in the hunter ring.

As far as the rest of your post, my guess is that you’re about as familiar with dressage scoring as caballogurl is with hunter scoring. What your post sounds like is someone who crams their horse together, riding front to back, is going to score well. Since leaving the hunters for the event world several years ago, I’ve seen nothing of the sort.

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=2LaZ2race;8270158]
Wow… I think you need to log off for a while. Are you CWI (COTHing while intoxicated) ??

Horses shouldn’t be drugged and neither should people. {the end}[/QUOTE]

What about the decent sized portion of the U.S. population that is in antidepressants or anti anxiety meds? And can’t function without them?

Realize it’s not a true apples to apples comparison because, consent, but every time someone is set down for something or the other and this argument comes up, I wonder how it’s ok for people to use medication to soothe their heads and us not to do the same with our animals. Obviously there are some horses drugged for the sake of drugging that probably wouldn’t need it if they got a good hack in the morning (and the BNT I groomed for in high school was in the hack all the horses every am camp, so I know the impact from experience). But what about the true “head cases”, for lack of a more PC word? Heck, I’m a human head case and I’ll straight up tell you I can’t function in my job, let alone my life, without anti anxiety meds. Does that mean I should be moved to a less stressful job where I don’t have to deal with people? No, because I’m good at my job.

I know most people here will shoot down this argument, and I’m with you in terms of not agreeing with the drugging for the sake of drugging camp. But I’ve watched a lot of hunters over the years, and the good really do outweigh the bad (either that, or these trainers aren’t drugging them right). I’ve seen it with my own eyes, both as a groom and as a client. Trust me, the people who are mad chemists on all their horses, at the sake of proper prep, usually aren’t the winners consistently, (with a small exception).

[monalisa]

Now if only the USEF could find a way to test those that are being given magnesium IV, before they go to the ring. There would heads falling left and right IMHO.

[bjd2013]

I honestly use to think the whole “judges need to change their standards to encourage less drugging, etc.” idea was dumb. But now that I have a super nice horse that is showing, I wish it would change. He jumps every jump a 12, is the hack winner, beautiful, etc. except every once in a while (depends on the day, his mood, how the wind blows ;)) He will drop his head and act like he wants to crow hop or something. Some judges don’t care, some score him last of the class even with a beautiful trip. Now that it’s coming time for him to do the Pre-Greens next year I constantly find myself trying to figure out how to get him “quiet”. I’ve lunged him before, but he’s a 40-50 min lunge and I hate doing that to him, all I can think about are his joints and future vet bills. Trainer gave him PP when she took him to a show and it made him actually super sensitive and up.

Anyway, my point is, that the judging standards are making it impossible for these horses. They’re animals, not robots. Just because they drop they heads, spin their tails, shake their head, it doesn’t mean they hate their job or that they’re not suitable for the job at hand. My horse LOVES to show, and jump. He simply can act like a baby sometimes. I think it will go away with time, but I can see where a lot of people would be like, “Oh go give Spot some X, he shows in about 30 mins.” And he’d be the class winner every time. Not supporting the practice, but see where these people are coming from.

A lot of owners aren’t happy if they aren’t winning. Unhappy people leave. No customers = no income.

[RolexReady]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8269623]
I don’t know…I’ve had golf carts whizzing right passed me so close we could do a baton handoff. I could use a drink to get around the show grounds, why not my horse*. :winkgrin:

*not that I would. I have a trainer for that. She gets to ride horsey first to help her settle in. #crashtestdummie[/QUOTE]

Dont you think it would be more beneficial to learn yourself how to ride through problems like this? I see this happen all the time at hunter shows - just handing the horse off to the trainer to do all the “work” so the rider can reap the benefits in the class. Shame on the trainer as well for not teaching the rider any better. Maybe if the riders were more versed in handling the horse during a stressful situation they wouldnt be so quick to grab the ace.

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=RolexReady;8270511]
Dont you think it would be more beneficial to learn yourself how to ride through problems like this? I see this happen all the time at hunter shows - just handing the horse off to the trainer to do all the “work” so the rider can reap the benefits in the class. Shame on the trainer as well for not teaching the rider any better. Maybe if the riders were more versed in handling the horse during a stressful situation they wouldnt be so quick to grab the ace.[/QUOTE]

I’d rather see a trainer giving a greenie good experience by riding it for the owner than seeing the trainwreck that is a nervous rider on top of a nervous horse. (Not that I’m saying RugBug doesn’t ride well, she does! Just making a general statement)

Trainers are more likely to shut off their own emotions and be able to handle a nervous, green horse than your typical adult amateur rider. And shame on the trainer? Really? That seems like overkill given the situation RugBug described.