And with the timing of 9/1 as the start of the suspension for Bridget, she will not be able to go to Tori’s last finals…Frankly, if the hearing date for all and suspensions are for the same substance, they should all be for the same terms; start date, fine etc.
I have often thought that owners should be penalized (as opposed to merely returning prizes). If the owner of the horse was set down, even for a month, he/she might become more proactive in finding out what is going into her horse on show days.
The current system of “don’t ask, don’t tell” encourages owners to actively ignore what their trainer is doing to get their horse to the ring.
30 years ago I was guilty of that attitude. At first because I was naive, then because I did not want to know; what I didn’t know couldn’t hurt me.
USEF needs to enact rules that tell the owner “What you don’t know CAN hurt you. [So it would behoove you to ask and to only train with trainers who take your horse to the ring clean of all banned substances].”
Trainers do what they do because their customers want results. I am certainly not exonerating cheaters, but I am also laying a large % of blame on owners who foster this “I want to win more than I want to win fairly. If my trainer gets caught, that is his problem, not mine” attitude.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270522]
I’d rather see a trainer giving a greenie good experience by riding it for the owner than seeing the trainwreck that is a nervous rider on top of a nervous horse. (Not that I’m saying RugBug doesn’t ride well, she does! Just making a general statement)
Trainers are more likely to shut off their own emotions and be able to handle a nervous, green horse than your typical adult amateur rider. And shame on the trainer? Really? That seems like overkill given the situation RugBug described.[/QUOTE]
If the rider and horse are that nervous at that show… then neither of them should be there in the first place. Take it down a notch, go to lower key shows until the pair gets both of their confidence and are prepared for the bigger show. Or if the rider is that much of an “amateur”… she shouldnt be on such a green horse.
Its not realistic to say “what’s dressage doing right, they don’t have a drug problem.” ALL major sports have a cheating problem. The problem differs depending on what is desired. Where quietness is emphasized, cheating is often accomplished via drugs (Western pleasure, hunters) where expression/athleticism is emphasized, cheating is more likely to be accomplished via cruel training techniques (dressage, jumpers, saddleseat). EVERY sport has rotten appels in the barrel. EVERY one. I don’t think one form of cheating is better/worse than another. Change the emphasis and the sport doesn’t clean up-- it just shifts accordingly.
And FWIW at the lower levels of of dressage/unrated shows/nervous adult types you see PLENTY of quieting via drugging. PLENTY. No Edward Gal doesn’t need Ace to get around but at your local level PLENTY of nervous overhorsed ladies are riding horses who were given a cocktail.
[QUOTE=RolexReady;8270542]
If the rider and horse are that nervous at that show… then neither of them should be there in the first place. Take it down a notch, go to lower key shows until the pair gets both of their confidence and are prepared for the bigger show. Or if the rider is that much of an “amateur”… she shouldnt be on such a green horse.[/QUOTE]
There is no way to get exposure to the big show atmosphere without going to a big show.
Honestly, there are a lot of things that you can criticize about the H/J industry, but having a professional ride the horse to give it good experiences is not really one of them.
^^^ Most people don’t need a $50k+ horse. They need a $10k horse and $40k of lessons.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270559]
There is no way to get exposure to the big show atmosphere without going to a big show.
Honestly, there are a lot of things that you can criticize about the H/J industry, but having a professional ride the horse to give it good experiences is not really one of them.[/QUOTE]
If the professional was schooling it as well as showing the horse for its first time or two at a big show, thats one thing… That happens in a lot of dicisplines, and I believe thats ok. If the professional is just warming the horse up for the rider… thats what is wrong. It teaches the rider nothing but that its ok to just go for the ribbon and skip out on the work.
[QUOTE=RolexReady;8270568]
If the professional was schooling it as well as showing the horse for its first time or two at a big show, thats one thing… That happens in a lot of dicisplines, and I believe thats ok. If the professional is just warming the horse up for the rider… thats what is wrong. It teaches the rider nothing but that its ok to just go for the ribbon and skip out on the work.[/QUOTE]
If the horse is being properly cared for, does it really matter who rides it for what reason? We can bemoan the advent of riders vs horsemen until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, if the horse is being taken care of properly, I don’t really see the issue if Abby Amateur doesn’t want to do some of the scut work that Hadley Horsewoman does.
Oops, double post. Sorry.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270577]
If the horse is being properly cared for, does it really matter who rides it for what reason? We can bemoan the advent of riders vs horsemen until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, if the horse is being taken care of properly, I don’t really see the issue if Abby Amateur doesn’t want to do some of the scut work that Hadley Horsewoman does.[/QUOTE]
But drugging a horse to get it to be quieter at a show is by no means proper care… Abby Amateur should find a new sport thats less demanding if she doesnt want to put the real time and effort in.
[QUOTE=RolexReady;8270585]
But drugging a horse to get it to be quieter at a show is by no means proper care… Abby Amateur should find a new sport thats less demanding if she doesnt want to put the real time and effort in.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure where you got the idea that what I’m talking about involves drugging? RugBug’s point, which was my jumping-off point, was that her trainer rides her green horse first so that if there’s an issue, RugBug, who maybe doesn’t bounce as well as she did when she was a junior, isn’t the crash test dummy.
[QUOTE=mvp;8270307]
You have a point about dressage horses and their hardware… kinda. But the other thing I notice is that you are allowed to wrap yourself around them and really ride them more. You never have to let go…. and you taught the horse to accept that level of body control from the rider.
But! Relaxation is becoming an increasingly Big Deal in judging at the lower levels, so far as I can tell. You might care (if that represents a horse-friendly training ideal) or you might not (because horses being aimed at FEI levels often aren’t expected to do well at the lower levels for reasons of sensitivity that are needed higher up).
And a dressage pro of mine who converted from the hunters noticed this and predicts that drugging will become A Thing in DressageWorld as well. IMO, all the elements of making the lower levels really, really friendly for the rider who lacks experience, skill and time but has money to spend are there. Just wait: Dressage will reach critical mass in its Industrial Revolution, too, and then we’ll be having the same conversation over there.[/QUOTE]
What you said about relaxation is absolutely true. I show and scribe a lot and I see lots of comments about this in the lower level tests.
As for drugging in dressage, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s already happening or if it gets worse as in the way H/J is now.
I had an interesting conversation with someone recently about the number of adult amateur riders who are looking for a 3rd level horse who can help them get their bronze medal, but the horse can’t have a spook. I won’t even get into the price people want to get this kind of horse for. Some of these people might as well go looking for a @#$@#$ unicorn. lol.
The more I see of this kind of thing going on, the more appreciative I am of the person who gave me the opportunity to work with young horses and OTTB’s when I was a teenager. It gave me a great foundation for dealing with antics and other things that helped me develop a good seat. so a horse who is a little bit hot or has some exuberance is not as big a deal as it might otherwise be.
I see a lot of people looking for a quick fix, and maybe they get it, but only to a point.
I recently sacrified a lot of my riding time in order to hit the gym HARD. When I started ramping up my riding again, a lot of advanced movements were so much easier. Not a lot of people want to take the time to do that though which is too bad.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270576]
If the horse is being properly cared for, does it really matter who rides it for what reason? We can bemoan the advent of riders vs horsemen until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, if the horse is being taken care of properly, I don’t really see the issue if Abby Amateur doesn’t want to do some of the scut work that Hadley Horsewoman does.[/QUOTE]
Coming back to who signed the entry blank and Mrs. Colvin’s statement that she didn’t know what was going on and will defend herself along those lines in court…. I can see an argument for insisting that people who do claim to be involved with their horse’s care or well-being actually are.
I really like the idea of including owners in the punishment. Whoever said it first is right, no owners able to show will at least make them think twice about getting caught. No fall guy possible then. Side note: I have less of a problem with horses being drugged to stay quiet as opposed to being drugged to jog sound. And yes, I’ve also seen both sides of the drug culture working for various A show barns as a groom, and by far it is a worse crime to get them sound via drugs
Just wondering - how would this play out for owners that have their horses out on full lease? Would the lessee then take the heat?
[QUOTE=mvp;8270608]
Coming back to who signed the entry blank and Mrs. Colvin’s statement that she didn’t know what was going on and will defend herself along those lines in court…. I can see an argument for insisting that people who do claim to be involved with their horse’s care or well-being actually are.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the wording on that entry blank we all sign already establishes that. People don’t read it or just lie. They are trying to establish consequences for that, she got nailed for signing as responsible-she lied by signing if she was not responsible for the horses care or she’s falling on the proverbial sword.
If the actual trainer at the tine, who was not there, had been there and signed? This conversation would have considerably more…interesting.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8268873]
Worth pointing out that Perfect Products makes more things than Perfect Prep, and a number of them have nothing to do with performance (anyone who uses Regen-X EQ on your horse’s feet - that’s a Perfect Product too).[/QUOTE]
Also worth pointing out, Perfect Products is most well known for their Perfect Prep product line.
Let’s ban Quiessence, Regumate, and any Magensium supplement too while we’re at it. All behavioral modifying supplements and medications when used for their alternative purpose.
My argument is simply this: The USEF needs to define the allowable level of GABA beyond he current definition of “in excess of naturally occurring levels.” What is the naturally occurring level, and what research has been done to rule out the fact that some horses naturally occurring levels vary from one to the next.
The USEF, with their going concern issues, needs to watch what deep pockets they piss off.
Off the soap box now.
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8270538]
I have often thought that owners should be penalized (as opposed to merely returning prizes). If the owner of the horse was set down, even for a month, he/she might become more proactive in finding out what is going into her horse on show days.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree. Isn’t there a USEF proposal right now on the table addressing this issue?
Awww, c’mon people. Don’t feed the trolls. Rolex
ready is 1. a troll, 2. an eventer who has come over from the darkside to tell us what is wrong with out sport, 3. both.
Ignore her. Maybe she will go away or else start posting under her real screen name.
And, it seems to me, arguing over whether it is a good or bad thing for a pro to warm up a horse for a nervous ammi has gotten a long way from discussing the suspension of certain BNT’s.
[QUOTE=AdultAmmieMommie;8270644]
Just wondering - how would this play out for owners that have their horses out on full lease? Would the lessee then take the heat?[/QUOTE]
If the lease is recorded with USEF, the person(s) signing the entry blank as owner/leasee and trainer would be the responsible parties.
