I suppose SS is the trainer but perhaps BC signs the entry forms these days. Kind of like when Andre Dignelli (sp?) had their groom sign all the forms. SS does not need another drug busting as it wasn’t that long ago.
To someone’s point, yes this is shocking but those that are listed have tons of horses show and they do well. So I would think they are getting tested alot. Its not like you see their names month after month in the suspensions.
Lord Helpus, it was reported August 14, 2014, right before Derby Finals, that Tori left Scott’s barn. http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/ringside-chat-tori-colvin-new-adventures
[QUOTE=vxf111;8270546]
And FWIW at the lower levels of of dressage/unrated shows/nervous adult types you see PLENTY of quieting via drugging. PLENTY. No Edward Gal doesn’t need Ace to get around but at your local level PLENTY of nervous overhorsed ladies are riding horses who were given a cocktail.[/QUOTE]
I find this true of all disciplines in unrated shows. Its not that there’s less drugging, there’s just no drug testers. Though from my experience, the one being given the cocktail in dressage or eventing (rated or not) is more likely the rider 
Thanks, BL. I had not seen that.
It sounds like SS asked/told her to leave! Strange.
And, in light of these recent revelations the following statement takes on a new meaning:
“I know then so well. I’ve ridden them for four years, so I know their programs.”
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270576]
If the horse is being properly cared for, does it really matter who rides it for what reason? We can bemoan the advent of riders vs horsemen until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, if the horse is being taken care of properly, I don’t really see the issue if Abby Amateur doesn’t want to do some of the scut work that Hadley Horsewoman does.[/QUOTE]
And honestly - for those of us who work full time, it’s really difficult to put in that work. Someone has to pay the bills.
Steven Rivetts was also laid down, since I believe he signed as trainer too. He is always down as the trainer whenever Tori is on one of Betsee’s hunters, as much as I’ve noticed.
To me people just don’t magically change the program
of a horse, especially one who consistently wins.
And to whoever posted that I’m speculating, I am. But guess what it looks funny and shady. Just like a previous poster said, Andre had his grooms sign so he wouldn’t get in trouble.
Brigid use to be/is (not really sure anymore) Scott Stewarts barn manager. So obviously she has been around that horse for a LONG time, and knows it’s program.
So Andre can say “Give the horse X, Y, and Z”, have a groom sign and if they get caught, Andre and his horses can go on doing whatever they want to do and only the “groom” has to sit out (which they probably do anyway).
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8270867]
Steven Rivetts was also laid down, since I believe he signed as trainer too. He is always down as the trainer whenever Tori is on one of Betsee’s hunters, as much as I’ve noticed.
To me people just don’t magically change the program
of a horse, especially one who consistently wins.
And to whoever posted that I’m speculating, I am. But guess what it looks funny and shady. Just like a previous poster said, Andre had his grooms sign so he wouldn’t get in trouble.
Brigid use to be/is (not really sure anymore) Scott Stewarts barn manager. So obviously she has been around that horse for a LONG time, and knows it’s program.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8270900]
So Andre can say “Give the horse X, Y, and Z”, have a groom sign and if they get caught, Andre and his horses can go on doing whatever they want to do and only the “groom” has to sit out (which they probably do anyway).[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Which is why I’m speculating they had Brigid sign, because they can go on their happy merry way, while she sits out.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8270924]
Exactly. Which is why I’m speculating they had Brigid sign, because they can go on their happy merry way, while she sits out.[/QUOTE]
Who are “they”? The COTH article said that Tori and her mother were doing all the training for Parker’s horses. I don’t know how Rickets fits into this since his name wasn’t mentioned but Tori specifically stated that Andre is not involved in her hunter riding except when she shows Clearway in the hunters.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8270924]
Exactly. Which is why I’m speculating they had Brigid sign, because they can go on their happy merry way, while she sits out.[/QUOTE]
I guess what irks be about this line of thinking, is that (and I apologize if I’m misinterpreting) it implies that Brigid had no say - that she was a total innocent thrown to the wolves. She knows - better than most - the potential consequences of signing off as a trainer. Are there some cases where trainers have grooms sign entry blanks, to serve as scapegoats if something goes wrong? Absolutely - and I think that’s reprehensible. But that was certainly not the case here.
They didn’t “have” Brigid sign – she made a choice!
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8270577]
If the horse is being properly cared for, does it really matter who rides it for what reason? We can bemoan the advent of riders vs horsemen until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, if the horse is being taken care of properly, I don’t really see the issue if Abby Amateur doesn’t want to do some of the scut work that Hadley Horsewoman does.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you as far as adults choosing not to do scut work … I think we both distinguish that from the adult who disclaims all responsibility for the way the horse is cared for. Responsibility does include understanding the program you have placed your horse in entirely and having frank discussions about that program.
However, I think that kids/juniors should do at least basic horse care to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the horse and a basketball - the latter being an inanimate object.
I think that what makes sense in terms of consequences is setting the horse down for 6 months. It punishes all of the parties involved (owner, rider, trainer, etc) by taking the horse out of competition. And – it is a significant penalty.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8270942]
Who are “they”? The COTH article said that Tori and her mother were doing all the training for Parker’s horses. I don’t know how Rickets fits into this since his name wasn’t mentioned but Tori specifically stated that Andre is not involved in her hunter riding except when she shows Clearway in the hunters.[/QUOTE]
STEVEN RIVETTS of Wellington, FL, and BRIGID COLVIN of Loxahatchee, FL, violated Chapter 4, GR410-411 of this Federation, in connection with the 2014 USHJA International Hunter Derby Championship Horse Show held on August 14-16, 2014, in that they, as trainers, exhibited the horse INCLUSIVE after it had been administered and/or contained in its body gamma- aminobutyric acid (GABA) in excess of normal physiological levels.
For this violation of the rules, the Hearing Committee members present directed that pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1b and GR703.1f, STEVEN RIVETTS and BRIGID COLVIN, be found not in good standing, and both be suspended from membership, and forbidden from the privilege of taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition for seven months, and is excluded from all competition grounds during Licensed Competitions for that period: (1) as an exhibitor, participant or spectator; (2) from participating in all Federation affairs and activities, (3) from holding or exercising office in the Federation or in any Licensed Competition; and (4)from attending, observing or participating in any event, forum, meeting, program, clinic, task force, or committee of the Federation, sponsored by or conducted by the Federation, or held in connection with the Federation and any of its activities.
STEVEN RIVETTS’ seven month suspension shall commence on July 1, 2015 and terminate at midnight on January 31, 2016.
BRIGID COLVIN’S seven month suspension shall commence on September 1, 2015 and terminate at midnight on March 31, 2016.
Any horse or horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his or hers, or shown in his or her name or for his or her reputation, (whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter), shall also be suspended, pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1c.
Furthermore, the Hearing Committee directed that STEVEN RIVETTS and BRIGID COLVIN each be fined $7,000 pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1j.
It was further directed that for this violation of the rules, DR. BETSEE PARKER, of Loxahatchee, FL, as owner, must return for redistribution all trophies, prizes, ribbons, and monies, if any, won by INCLUSIVE at said competition, and must pay a $300 fee to the competition in connection with this penalty pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1g.
That’s they.
And I’m not implying she had no say, and she is (I hope) a smart woman and knows what signing and entry blank means. I’m implying she knew what she was getting into.
Didn’t I read somewhere recently that when Tori ages out from the Junior Hunters that the horses she rides will be retired to Parker’s farm?
[QUOTE=RugBug;8270367]
I’m not following you. My horse, who lets say on her best day with her best round ever is an 85 in good company, gets a terrible ride and we put in a terrible round but everyone else does worse? There’s the winning with a 65. Our 65 is the right end of the curve on that day.[/QUOTE]
No, that’s not how scoring (or grading) on a curve works, except the difference in horses is that the best of the worst still gets a blue ribbon. Doesn’t mean the scores are distributed on a curve. You could have all scores in the 60s. It doesn’t mean you always need an “A” to win a class, and it also doesn’t mean that your mediocre round that happened to win that day was an “A” round. A BNT who I rode with as a junior told me on a few occasions when I was doing a hunter classic that I didn’t need an A to win that day based on how the class was going and who was there. So, he would tell me not to try to be a super star but maybe ride safe and shoot for a B, maybe even B- to try to come out on top.
There is no curve applied to horse show scoring. You could have 8/10 competitors with a rail or refusal or something and then a winner with an 85. What you’ve got is placing of the top 6 straight scores. The criteria for scoring excellent rounds and major fault rounds may tend to put the majority of rounds in a large class in the C range, which means that the actual performance of the participants in a large class may wind up taking a bell curve type shape. But to actually score on a curve means applying a scale after the fact. Your 65 winning round never ever turns into a 90 just because you got a blue ribbon.
IPEsq, I don’t think that’s what RugBug meant by the term “curve.” I think she meant it more like “spectrum of scores.”
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8270969]
I think that what makes sense in terms of consequences is setting the horse down for 6 months. It punishes all of the parties involved (owner, rider, trainer, etc) by taking the horse out of competition. And – it is a significant penalty.[/QUOTE]
However, what do you do with the horse that has been sold between the time it was tested and the time the test results come back and it goes to the hearing committee? Obviously the testing system is slow - you don’t get the results back within a day - and the new owner could be stuck with a horse that can’t show even when they had nothing to do with the violation. Is that fair? Absolutely not. Do you start selling horses with the caveat they have not been tested in the last X days? While I agree with the idea of setting the horse down in theory, in reality it’s not at all practical.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8270976]
STEVEN RIVETTS of Wellington, FL, and BRIGID COLVIN of Loxahatchee, FL, violated Chapter 4, GR410-411 of this Federation, in connection with the 2014 USHJA International Hunter Derby Championship Horse Show held on August 14-16, 2014, in that they, as trainers, exhibited the horse INCLUSIVE after it had been administered and/or contained in its body gamma- aminobutyric acid (GABA) in excess of normal physiological levels.
For this violation of the rules, the Hearing Committee members present directed that pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1b and GR703.1f, STEVEN RIVETTS and BRIGID COLVIN, be found not in good standing, and both be suspended from membership, and forbidden from the privilege of taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition for seven months, and is excluded from all competition grounds during Licensed Competitions for that period: (1) as an exhibitor, participant or spectator; (2) from participating in all Federation affairs and activities, (3) from holding or exercising office in the Federation or in any Licensed Competition; and (4)from attending, observing or participating in any event, forum, meeting, program, clinic, task force, or committee of the Federation, sponsored by or conducted by the Federation, or held in connection with the Federation and any of its activities.
STEVEN RIVETTS’ seven month suspension shall commence on July 1, 2015 and terminate at midnight on January 31, 2016.
BRIGID COLVIN’S seven month suspension shall commence on September 1, 2015 and terminate at midnight on March 31, 2016.
Any horse or horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his or hers, or shown in his or her name or for his or her reputation, (whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter), shall also be suspended, pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1c.
Furthermore, the Hearing Committee directed that STEVEN RIVETTS and BRIGID COLVIN each be fined $7,000 pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1j.
It was further directed that for this violation of the rules, DR. BETSEE PARKER, of Loxahatchee, FL, as owner, must return for redistribution all trophies, prizes, ribbons, and monies, if any, won by INCLUSIVE at said competition, and must pay a $300 fee to the competition in connection with this penalty pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1g.
That’s they.
And I’m not implying she had no say, and she is (I hope) a smart woman and knows what signing and entry blank means. I’m implying she knew what she was getting into.[/QUOTE]
So the “they” you were referring to, the ones who get to go in their merry way, are Steven Rivetts and Brigid Colvin. They are the ones who were suspended and fined, so I’m not understanding why you think they get to go on their merry way. Presumably they both signed as trainers. Based on the COTH article, Brigid Colvin is the appropriate person to sign as trainer for Parker’s horses. Since the article did not mention the other guy, I’m not clear on what his role is that he would have signed as trainer.
Your explanation of who “they” are doesn’t make any sense.
[QUOTE=RugBug;8270290]
For dressage, there are different standards and goals and equipment. Honestly, if we slapped a double bridle on our hunters and rode with a lot of contact, there would probably be a lot less drugging. Instead, we go on a light, light rein in bits with no leverage (granted the mouth pieces of the bits can get pretty significant). It’s not an apples to apples comparison. Even lower level dressage without doubles allows for more contact and control than hunters want to see. Brilliance is desired in dressage, hunters want a brilliant jump and everything else quiet. Wringing tails and pinned ears are just fine in dressage (at least from what I see) but it won’t get you far in the hunter ring.[/QUOTE]
Have you READ the dressage rules?
Double bridles are only permitted at Third and above (a TINY percentage of the Dressage rides). Only smooth snaffles and smooth nosebands are permitted at the levels MOST people ride.
Tail wringing is penalized as prima facie evidence of lack of submission
DR116.2.a
a. Putting out the tongue, keeping it above the bit or drawing it up altogether, as
well as grinding the teeth or agitation of the tail, are mostly signs of nervousness,
tension or resistance on the part of the horse and must be taken into account by the
judges in their marks for every movement concerned, as well as in the collective
mark for “submission”.
typically penalized by 2 points (20%) per movement where it occurs, and in the collective marks.
(BTW, AFAIK hunters do NOT get penalized sticking their tongues out, or grinding their teeth, the way dresage horses do.)
And I can assure you that “riding with a lot of contact” does NOT produce a winning dressage test.
The reasons Belle generally finishes the dressage phase at the bottom of the pack is becuase of
“tense”
“resistance”
“lack of submission”
All of which can only be addressed by riding with LESS contact. More contact just makes it worse.
Belle is a fabulous jumper, which compensates for her bad dressage. But she would never make a good hunter for the same reasons she does badly in dressage.
[QUOTE=Blinky;8270816]
To someone’s point, yes this is shocking but those that are listed have tons of horses show and they do well. So I would think they are getting tested alot. Its not like you see their names month after month in the suspensions.[/QUOTE]
Lance Armstrong used to say over and over again how he was the most tested cyclist in the entire sport, and, well, we all saw what eventually happened there. And, that was in a sport where the winner ALWAYS gets tested. USEF testing is supposed to be random.
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