Say it isn't so....Inclusive on USEF Drug List

[busylady]

Regarding the rule change, if it was inspired at all by the Inclusive situation, maybe this section explains Brigid’s “I’m not involved” position:

1.Trainers and other Persons Responsible, in the absence of substantial evidence to the contrary, are responsible and accountable under the penalty provisions of these rules. The trainer and other Persons Responsible are not relieved from such responsibility as a result of the lack or insufficiency of stable security.

Given that non one wants to actually discuss their feelings about the matter at hand (see my previous plea for your thoughts), let’s think of who could have snuck into Inclusive’s stall and poisoned him with GABA!! Obviously that is what happened…

On another note, has anyone read Kathy Serio’s latest rant on Facebook? The one about showing at WEF being way too stressful for a horse sans calming supplements…Holy cow, that woman really needs to step away from the keyboard.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=busylady;8271543]

On another note, has anyone read Kathy Serio’s latest rant on Facebook? The one about showing at WEF being way too stressful for a horse sans calming supplements…Holy cow, that woman really needs to step away from the keyboard.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I just read it. You know what? I’m an ammy owner re-rider who owns a baby horse, and I spent my money and vacation time to take him to the biggest A show in my area (one week was a WCHR week) on self-care at the expense of doing things like some flat classes or no-judge rounds in the long stirrup on the cheaper local level so that baby horse could see and hear the vendors and the golf carts and the dirt bikes and mountain bikes and dogs and tents flapping and trash can emptying and water trucks and 10 tractors and kamikaze ponies and the show grounds neighbors getting a new roof nailed on and speakers crackling–all with zero pressure to go jump around and compete for a ribbon. And when horse’s airs above the ground started to get me frazzled, I got a pro to school him. Pro did the opposite of give the horse a cocktail–he got on with big spurs and a crop and told baby horse to get his s*** together.

Horse got worked 2x a day with a mix of longeing, me riding and pro riding and also taken out for walks (often with a chain shank and a backup 10’ lead rope), and I almost got trampled a couple of times from baby horse spooking at traffic. By the second week, baby horse still wasn’t ready to show but pro commented that he had 100% improvement, and I no longer needed a chain shank just to go walk to the wash rack, and we hacked around the main hunter rings in the wee hours calmer than half the other horses in there.

I’ve certainly had easier babies to take to their first big show environment, but those with less acrobatics may still do something like scream their heads off all day or do something else that wouldn’t pin well in hunter land. You’ve got to set reasonable, achievable goals for each horse.

The problem is not WEF, although I do think that vehicles should not go in the horse-only areas and that people who continue to drive their dirt bike at 30mph behind a horse that has started levitating need to chill out and SLOW THE F DOWN. WEF is a show with enormous numbers of entries. If you think that’s the best place for baby horse’s first horse show, then that is a problem with your program trying to hurry in the $$, not show management. Most of the behavioral triggers she talks about would happen at other venues, where it would likely be easier to deal with them.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8271519]

Not sure how the FEI solves these problems, but currently Steve Guerdat (winner of the World Cup in Las Vegas last April) has been suspended, as has the horse.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/guerdat-nino-des-buissonnets-will-remain-suspended-europeans[/QUOTE]

Not any more…he appealed and the suspension was lifted…
http://www.fei.org/news/fei-tribunal-lifts-provisional-suspensions-guerdat-and-bichsel

[Lord_Helpus]

Interesting that they lifted the riders’ bans (I hope that is only until a hearing can be held) but the horses are still suspended and cannot show at the European Championships.

[bjd2013]

[QUOTE=busylady;8271543]
Regarding the rule change, if it was inspired at all by the Inclusive situation, maybe this section explains Brigid’s “I’m not involved” position:

1.Trainers and other Persons Responsible, in the absence of substantial evidence to the contrary, are responsible and accountable under the penalty provisions of these rules. The trainer and other Persons Responsible are not relieved from such responsibility as a result of the lack or insufficiency of stable security.

Given that non one wants to actually discuss their feelings about the matter at hand (see my previous plea for your thoughts), let’s think of who could have snuck into Inclusive’s stall and poisoned him with GABA!! Obviously that is what happened…[/QUOTE]

My guess is she’s trying to throw it all on Steven, since he signed the entry blank and is a trainer, hired by BP.

[bingbingbing]

[QUOTE=busylady;8271543]
On another note, has anyone read Kathy Serio’s latest rant on Facebook? The one about showing at WEF being way too stressful for a horse sans calming supplements…Holy cow, that woman really needs to step away from the keyboard.[/QUOTE]
And here it is:

Because I often tend to “say” what most people might simply “think”…

This Bud is for you, the owner and rider who is that purist who has a perfect horse that doesn’t need to be lunged, goes in a loose ring snaffle at all times, never does anything wrong and is AGAINST the “disgusting hunter people that have become the laughing stock of the industry” as one idiot put on The Chronicle of the Horse FB page…

Here is my take on calming agents, which I feel should be perfectly permissible in the hunter ring, as they ARE in the western world…

I’m just wondering if any of the people saying horses should be given “nothing to calm a horse”, have EVER shown a horse? Ever shown a baby horse? Ever done either of those 2 things -at WEF??

I’d like to BUY a fancy young hunter prospect from the people that keep saying their horse is perfect at all times, since I seem to buy them at 2 yrs of age, break them myself, usually have them here at home to train myself. Then when we get to the show my “perfect” horse might get a wee bit excited with “little barn syndrome”, as Tommy Serio calls it, and promptly begins screaming the minute he walks on the trailer- getting all the other horses wound up, pawing in the stall at the show, getting frantic when horses move in and out of the barn leaving them behind to school at the show. Alas, a perfect storm for colic.

Sure the horses are always perfect…at HOME. You add golf carts flying by-no one knows you might be on a young horse, you add tents flapping, announcers buzzing in, vendors lined up on the walkway with shirts blowing in the wind off the mannequin, even add a water treadmill next to the baby ring- right they see those everyday, add trashcans and the large water trucks blowing by at warp speed watering every ring, add a group tour of 45 senior citizens pointing and wandering into the line of fire since they’ve never seen a “live” horse, add buses of 25 children all wearing the same fluorescent green t-shirts so the teacher can easily recognize them, all screaming in excitement to be watching horses, add bicycles, strollers, funny looking Dalmatian dogs (lol), umbrellas, add men throwing trashcans into a trailer and replacing the can with another new flopping trash bag, let’s not forget the jump crew running around carrying jumps, and the piles and piles of unused jumps parked at the sides of the trails, also add tractors-huge ones-flying around arenas, looking almost like if there was no rail around the arena, they might just take you out, so it’s a good thing there is a 1 foot fence protecting you, then you have the 6 foot paths for horses to walk, but mostly they are looking for places to escape. This is a complete nightmare for a claustrophobic horse and a young horse, heck- ANY horse, and typically it is contagious to those around them!

Let’s see…then you add the warm up ring-before even getting to the show ring. Horses and or ponies (god forbid a PONY if your horse has never seen one) hacking the perimeter, people “calling out” for a jump to jump, horses coming at them in all directions, people standing next to jumps screaming at their riders, riders circling if the distance isn’t quite right, the in gate guy yelling the next order to go…

Put yourself in the position of a green rider on a green horse -what are you going to as a trainer to prevent EVERYONE from being hurt? Nothing? So many nervous adult riders help themselves to a xanax or a half a xanax or any other OTC product to calm THEIR nerves…imagine how that young baby horse they bought, cause they couldn’t afford a made one, or they thought it’d be fun to have their kid “grow up together”, or its never been off the farm and it’s perfect at home, so why is he a monster now in TRAFFIC? Imagine the consequences and at WEF it is very tight for horses.

A braider’s son was kicked in the head at WEF-riding in a golf cart while passing the horses, and had a head injury. It isn’t so far fetched from reality but the people with the one backyard horse that wants to point fingers and criticize doesn’t seem to comprehend the word “SAFETY”. So if you have yourself that 1 perfect horse, I totally get that (I do have 1 that is not bothered by traffic- I think he thinks he is at a beauty pageant and all eyes are on him, but OTHER things used to piss him off) but if you are seriously in this business, you will have 1 after another after another and they all break the mold.

So if you manage to have one perfect horse after perfect horse at HOME- I suggest you try him at a show and see if either his or your blood gets up, oh but maybe you’ll just “stay on and ride him” for hours and hours and instead just make him a little back sore.

Certainly we lunge…how long is too long? The purist here will say “lunging is bad”…all of this should be disallowed. Good luck with owning 40-50 horses in a lifetime and seeing if they all fit in that perfect little cookie cutter mold you so desire, AND they compete at the TOP level of the sport…my guess is no, they won’t.

Horse shows have become circuses from bad riders terrifying horses to nervous horses terrifying riders, to baby horses and plain worried horses, and all tend to make very safe and “perfect” horses even nervous…
Who do you think made your aged perfect horse? A trainer or owner that got them through those early nervous years…

[DMK]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8271569]
The problem is not WEF, although I do think that vehicles should not go in the horse-only areas and that people who continue to drive their dirt bike at 30mph behind a horse that has started levitating need to chill out and SLOW THE F DOWN. WEF is a show with enormous numbers of entries. If you think that’s the best place for baby horse’s first horse show, then that is a problem with your program trying to hurry in the $$, not show management. Most of the behavioral triggers she talks about would happen at other venues, where it would likely be easier to deal with them.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, my 4 year old OTTB’s first course, never mind show, was WEF. And this was back in Ye Olden Days when they didn’t even have separate paths for horses and vehicles. Why in my day, we expected our horses to dodge jack russell laden golf carts. <Stamps foot, thumps cane>. In his case, it was the BEST venue to start out at, and that was with what I would call a low key warm up lunge - not LTD. By his second season, I didn’t even lunge him. That “in close” experience is actually pretty helpful to some horses. Quite frankly there’s nothing I fear more with a young horse at a show with <shudder> … vistas. Those long views? Baby brains can just unwind.

So I would amend that statement to “if you think that’s the best venue for baby horse’s first show and yet you still think he needs chemical help*, yer doin’ it wrong”. There are plenty of youngsters that do it well, or even better than a small show.

*caveat to say I have nothing against some LYLL on a green bean’s first outing at X, just to keep us all safe if we are not sure about his reaction. But then we ain’t showing if that is the case. Obviously.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=poltroon;8271530]
Yes, Blue Hors Matine moves her tail and is expressive with it. The judges choose not to interpret it as tension or a lack of submission, based on the rest of the horse’s expression and body language. Or to the extent that they do in certain moments, it’s only costing her a small amount because overall the performance is so fluid and relaxed. IE: this is not a wringing tail from a horse that is in pain or crabby.

The performance would not be better if the tail was dead.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to say the mare died in 2010. Judging has improved since this ride in 2006, and if she turned in the same test today, she would be scored lower, the same with Salinero. The trend now is to follow more closely the classical principles. See Valegro.

Unfortunately Matine’s rider has had controversies surrounding his style of riding (from Eurodressage 4/2014):
The Danish Equestrian Federation has made it clear to Andreas Helgstrand that his use of the double bridle has been entirely unacceptable and not in accordance with our ethical guidelines. Andreas Helgstrand admits this and is in dialogue with the Danish Equestrian Federation about the use of equipment. At the same time, Andreas Helgstrand has chosen to follow the recommendation of the veterinarian to give Akeem Foldager some time off from training undtil the pain reaction in the right bar of the mouth has disappeared. He has further agreed to let the Danish Equestrian Federation keep track of Akeem Foldager in order to ensure that the above conditions are brought in order.
In the wake of this controversy, one of Helgstrand’s main sponsors, Danish feed company Equsana, has cancelled its sponsorship contract with the rider."

The horse, Akeem Foldager, has been sold to American rider Charlotte Jorst.

[Sticky_Situation]

Re: the quoted social media post …

Better living through pharmacology for EVERYBODY!!! Really, we are just concerned about safety!

It’s pretty clear what she think of us amateurs with one or two horses.

Ironically, my current guy is much better behaved at shows with golf carts/mopeds/spectators/tents etc. than he is at home in the indoor with all the scary arena monsters! And although he’s old enough to know better now, and he’s an eventer, not a hunter, I know for a fact that he’s never had a BNT giving him sedatives to help him hold it together.

[tja789]

[QUOTE=busylady;8270692]
Any chance we can refocus this thread? The issue here isn’t the difference between dressage and hunters, it is that one of the top horses, ridden by the winningest (is that a word??) juniors and owned by the top owner in the sport was medicated at one of the top events!!!

I’m curious how people feel about the players involved knowing what we know now. I’m also curious if people are talking about this with their barnmates and trainer. It seems like the topic is off limits and it also seems like the industry is okay with it. Drugging is part of the culture and if someone gets caught it is okay because we are all doing it. I’m frankly shocked that COTH did an article on it (great job COTH). What about the sponsors? Will they still support the owner/rider/trainer? Will we still see the rider on the cover of magazines (al la Scott Stewart after his set down)? Will you still be in awe when you see Tori lay down a 90, or 100, point round?[/QUOTE]

Sure, it takes some of the luster off TC’s record. It’s disheartening that BC is upset that she is the scapegoat (if indeed that is the situation), but doesn’t deny the act, doesn’t seem bothered by it, and doesn’t seem to care that her daughter and the ultra-wealthy sponsor have been exposed as cheaters.

[IPEsq]

@DMK;8271593

So I would amend that statement to “if you think that’s the best venue for baby horse’s first show and yet you still think he needs chemical help*, yer doin’ it wrong”. There are plenty of youngsters that do it well, or even better than a small show.

Yes, of course there are some perfect minded babies out there. I was mostly responding to her statement that EGAD “have you EVER shown a horse? Ever shown a baby horse? Ever done either of those 2 things -at WEF??” I certainly had a horse who had BTDT and was still a nightmare at home or at a local show but loved the “job” of an A show.

So I agree, if you have a horse who you think will freak out or who you’re not sure what they’ll do, then giving drugs for the sole purpose of keeping horse on track to compete and fit the cookie cutter mold (her words) is not the way to deal with that, and it’s NOT the show’s fault!

[RugBug]

Interesting rant by Kathy Serio and what seems to be her pro-calmer stance. I would bet the attorney didn’t approve that post.

I get her point, but if you want to use a calmer, then don’t show. Get the miles. My mare is a bit herdbound. She did a lot of hunting prior to my purchase as well as some show ring stuff, and her attitude is definitely “the more the merrier.” I’ve taken her to a few multi day shows just to figure this whole showing thing out. She is a maniac the first day, screaming and carrying on. I longe her, hand walk then ride, put her away, then ride her later in the afternoon. Second day I can usually get by with just am and pm rides…but she is still spooky with tractors, water trucks, etc…especially if she’s alone, so I am sure to walk her away from all the commotion/other horses. That’s always and adventure is how slowly she can walk away from the group. She is getting it figured out, though. Less and less screaming, she goes places by herself a lot now and is even going with a trailer buddy and learning to not be stupid about leaving the buddy.

Her fairly good nature did NOT prepare me for the clinic I want to at a polo grounds. I though it would be a cake walk. She was trailering alone, so no huge attachment. We knew what to expect and she’d been great for the same clinic the year prior. She was great the first day, but when they started playing polo on the second day. All hell broke loose. I’ve never seen this horse so upset. Constant spinning in her stall, rearing, trying to jump out, etc. I was so worried about colic and everyone thought I was being a princess, which was super frustrating. It was a Buck Brannaman clinic, so calmers weren’t really an option…groundwork was and I had already done A LOT. With the frantic-ness in her stall and the amount of groundwork necessary to get her to calm down, she ended up very muscle sore and I had to pull out of the clinic. I highly doubt that calmers would’ve done enough to settle her down, but I don’t think it would’ve been a bad use of them. We weren’t competing against anyone and it was for the safety of my horse…NOT for me.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=bingbingbing;8271591]
And here it is:

Because I often tend to “say” what most people might simply “think”…

This Bud is for you, the owner and rider who is that purist who has a perfect horse that doesn’t need to be lunged, goes in a loose ring snaffle at all times, never does anything wrong and is AGAINST the “disgusting hunter people that have become the laughing stock of the industry” as one idiot put on The Chronicle of the Horse FB page…

Here is my take on calming agents, which I feel should be perfectly permissible in the hunter ring, as they ARE in the western world…

I’m just wondering if any of the people saying horses should be given “nothing to calm a horse”, have EVER shown a horse? Ever shown a baby horse? Ever done either of those 2 things -at WEF??

I’d like to BUY a fancy young hunter prospect from the people that keep saying their horse is perfect at all times, since I seem to buy them at 2 yrs of age, break them myself, usually have them here at home to train myself. Then when we get to the show my “perfect” horse might get a wee bit excited with “little barn syndrome”, as Tommy Serio calls it, and promptly begins screaming the minute he walks on the trailer- getting all the other horses wound up, pawing in the stall at the show, getting frantic when horses move in and out of the barn leaving them behind to school at the show. Alas, a perfect storm for colic.

Sure the horses are always perfect…at HOME. You add golf carts flying by-no one knows you might be on a young horse, you add tents flapping, announcers buzzing in, vendors lined up on the walkway with shirts blowing in the wind off the mannequin, even add a water treadmill next to the baby ring- right they see those everyday, add trashcans and the large water trucks blowing by at warp speed watering every ring, add a group tour of 45 senior citizens pointing and wandering into the line of fire since they’ve never seen a “live” horse, add buses of 25 children all wearing the same fluorescent green t-shirts so the teacher can easily recognize them, all screaming in excitement to be watching horses, add bicycles, strollers, funny looking Dalmatian dogs (lol), umbrellas, add men throwing trashcans into a trailer and replacing the can with another new flopping trash bag, let’s not forget the jump crew running around carrying jumps, and the piles and piles of unused jumps parked at the sides of the trails, also add tractors-huge ones-flying around arenas, looking almost like if there was no rail around the arena, they might just take you out, so it’s a good thing there is a 1 foot fence protecting you, then you have the 6 foot paths for horses to walk, but mostly they are looking for places to escape. This is a complete nightmare for a claustrophobic horse and a young horse, heck- ANY horse, and typically it is contagious to those around them!

Let’s see…then you add the warm up ring-before even getting to the show ring. Horses and or ponies (god forbid a PONY if your horse has never seen one) hacking the perimeter, people “calling out” for a jump to jump, horses coming at them in all directions, people standing next to jumps screaming at their riders, riders circling if the distance isn’t quite right, the in gate guy yelling the next order to go…

Put yourself in the position of a green rider on a green horse -what are you going to as a trainer to prevent EVERYONE from being hurt? Nothing? So many nervous adult riders help themselves to a xanax or a half a xanax or any other OTC product to calm THEIR nerves…imagine how that young baby horse they bought, cause they couldn’t afford a made one, or they thought it’d be fun to have their kid “grow up together”, or its never been off the farm and it’s perfect at home, so why is he a monster now in TRAFFIC? Imagine the consequences and at WEF it is very tight for horses.

A braider’s son was kicked in the head at WEF-riding in a golf cart while passing the horses, and had a head injury. It isn’t so far fetched from reality but the people with the one backyard horse that wants to point fingers and criticize doesn’t seem to comprehend the word “SAFETY”. So if you have yourself that 1 perfect horse, I totally get that (I do have 1 that is not bothered by traffic- I think he thinks he is at a beauty pageant and all eyes are on him, but OTHER things used to piss him off) but if you are seriously in this business, you will have 1 after another after another and they all break the mold.

So if you manage to have one perfect horse after perfect horse at HOME- I suggest you try him at a show and see if either his or your blood gets up, oh but maybe you’ll just “stay on and ride him” for hours and hours and instead just make him a little back sore.

Certainly we lunge…how long is too long? The purist here will say “lunging is bad”…all of this should be disallowed. Good luck with owning 40-50 horses in a lifetime and seeing if they all fit in that perfect little cookie cutter mold you so desire, AND they compete at the TOP level of the sport…my guess is no, they won’t.

Horse shows have become circuses from bad riders terrifying horses to nervous horses terrifying riders, to baby horses and plain worried horses, and all tend to make very safe and “perfect” horses even nervous…
Who do you think made your aged perfect horse? A trainer or owner that got them through those early nervous years…[/QUOTE]

Guess I just believe there are other options — like telling a client that their young horse, who is wonderful, is not ready to show with them at a huge venue – that the first year for a baby horse might just be wandering around and schooling rides with the pro because that is the exposure that will be necessary for them to turn into that “perfect” horse. BTW yet to observe a “perfect” horse - even the best of them have their individual triggers. Baby horses learn not just from exposure but from positive experience – and having a green nervous rider on a green horse in a huge atmosphere is not a positive experience for anyone.

I do agree that each horse is different - and giving them the experience to deal with their individual issues takes expertise.

[FreshAir]

One little flaw in the Serio’s story is the “we didn’t feed it on show days”. Well if you thought it was a legit supplement, why pull it on show days? Did they pull all supplements on show day?

[Peggy]

With respect to the FB rant pasted into post #325 and specifically the comment about western horses showing on calming agents, horses showing in western classes at USEF shows would be subject to the same rules as those for the other disciplines. And I think the AQHA shows are stricter about drugging (or is that “agenting”?) than USEF is.

On the situation in general, I’m not totally shocked that the horses managed by the group of people that included BC, were showing with calming drugs on board. I’m more surprised that they used one with a clearly-cited forbidden ingredient. Don’t these people have better chemists on staff? :winkgrin:

I’m becoming more grateful for the bike path that runs alongside our ring and is utilized not only by cyclists, some in large groups, skateboarders, motorized skateboarders, and the occasional (illegal) motorcycle. There are also shavings and manure/soiled bedding storage areas at one end of the ring, complete with the associated tractor traffic. Horses at many boarding facilities out here are fed from golf carts so they tend to associate them with dinner.

[poltroon]

I bomb-proofed my horse by taking her to the $4/class gymkhanas on saturday, then a “regular” show on sunday. The gymkhanas were a big ask, with grounds that smelled like cow and bucking chutes and (little!) kids careening around on horses they couldn’t stop or steer… but the benefit was that on Sunday at a nice quiet dressage show, she took a deep breath and was like “yes, this is much better” and didn’t put a foot wrong.

Today she goes to the gymkhana venue and is as cool as those seasoned quarter horses that are so common around here.

One of the Canadian olympians had a horse that was very reactive a few years back, so they made a crazy schooling show just for him - lawn chairs, bicycles, etc - so the horse could get used to a wacky atmosphere.

I’ve worked with lots of horses, including a lot of anxious or green horses.

So that post just makes me sad, the idea that the solution for green rider on green horse is to take it to WEF and give horse and rider the equivalent of a xanax. We’re supposed to be doing this for fun, people.

[vxf111]

@Mardi;8271539

I was glad that COTH covered the story, and surprised like many others that they did. I felt the same way when they covered former dressage team rider Tina Konyot’s FEI yellow card at the recent Jr/YR championships.

I hate to be cynical but it seem like “if enough people talk about it on the forums” COTH writes an article. Not necessarily based on strict newsworthiness or a desire to be an unbiased news source but rather to get eyes on what people want to read/talk about. There have been plenty of newsworthy events that didn’t get similar COTH coverage. I think they use the boards as a gauge for interest.

[neigh]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8270328]
Just think how many slaps on the wrist Scott Stewart has had in the past.[/QUOTE]

Guess who is showing Betsee’s horses in Kentucky?

[mroades]

I take 5-htp every day…should I not take it when I am showing???

[vxf111]

I bomb proofed my horse by doing a million watching-paint dry baby dressage tests and going to any show ground with an open-to-the-public event within 35 miles-- even when we stood out like a ridiculous sore thumb (hello giant gangly baby warmblood lapping peanut rollers at an open Wenglish QH type show). And then he went cross country schooling and baby foxhunting.

And then, lo and behold, he had seen the world and could go to busy H/J shows and keep his pants on. Was he always perfect? No. He had a pretty spastic Devon HUS his 3 year old and 4 year old years. But I prefer time/miles over drugs. We got there… and starting at around 5 years old he became a real solid character A/A horse who could go and show anywhere reliably.

No drugs necessary. Maybe a little more patience, but maybe that’s a big part of the problem?!