Say it isn't so....Inclusive on USEF Drug List

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=inca;8271815]
So, they aren’t going to be going to local “yeehaw” shows to expose their horses to chaos. They aren’t even going to the local h/j circuit shows. [/QUOTE]

I have never experienced a local “yeehaw” show that even gets close to the chaos of an A show…and I’ve been to a lot of yeehaws…even run one myself. They are good for getting the horse out, around different jumps, in a warm up…but not good for chaos.

And just to note: ANY CA show is subject to drug testing by the CDFA, yeehaw or not. We pay a state drug free for any show entered.

[inca]

Right - see my post above. I think most (I’m sure not all but most) clients of the BNTs don’t do anything with their horse without their trainer (or the assistant) being present. I would venture to guess the vast majority of those clients (again, we are talking about BNT clients) don’t own a truck and trailer so aren’t going to be hauling their horse to the local circuit. Personally I wouldn’t do the big A/AA circuits until I was able to consistently put in good trips on the local circuit. But, I also don’t ride with a BNT and don’t have an unlimited show budget!

[skydy]

The child molester was a SADDLEBRED trainer. Not surprising if COTH doesn’t write about it, yet they did mention it.

[inca]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8271905]
I have never experienced a local “yeehaw” show that even gets close to the chaos of an A show…and I’ve been to a lot of yeehaws…even run one myself. They are good for getting the horse out, around different jumps, in a warm up…but not good for chaos. [/QUOTE]

Good point but at least it does get the horse some exposure. Our big local circuit has plenty of chaos on show days and is at the same facility as the A/AA shows. But, the BIG difference is the ability to school and longe. You never have a problem getting into the ring and being able to jump around the day before you show at the local circuit shows. And there is almost always a decent place to longe. At the A/AA shows, those things are much more challenging. We had maybe 15 minutes in the ring with too many other people this year at Pin Oak. Thank goodness we do show at the same facility quite a bit. It’s a definite difference to go in the ring without jumping all the jumps the day prior.

And you are right, there is never as many vendors, banners, tent stabling and other “fanfare” on the local circuit as there is at the big A/AA shows. We do have some smaller A shows that really aren’t that much different from the local circuit. Those A shows are actually more relaxed than the local circuit shows just because you don’t have 8 zillion kids and parents that are new to the horse show thing running around. (Not that there is anything wrong with that because everyone needs to start showing somewhere!)

[m_m1]

I think it could be a good idea to have any one of several illegal substances on hand for baby horse’s first show. Maybe baby horse is going to freak out so badly that someone is going to get hurt. But as someone above said, that’s when you take baby horse out for a trial run - not when you are planning on taking baby horse into the show ring. Or you scratch.

[Metropolitan]

[QUOTE=mroades;8271713]
I take 5-htp every day…should I not take it when I am showing???[/QUOTE]

Egad! You obviously need to practice at home more until you can happily show without any dietary supplements :winkgrin:

[Janet]

[QUOTE=findeight;8271377]
Yes, I said it was on a curve, because that’s the best way to try to explain they are ranked in comparison to others in that class that day.[/QUOTE]

I tend to explain it that hunters are judged by ordinal numbers (first, second, third), by direct comparison between the horses. Dressage is judged by cardinal numbers (one, two three), and comparison to a standard for each movement.

For instance-
The hunter judge likes the round of the bay number 123, so gives it a score of 90.

The hunter judge likes the round of the gray number 456, but not as much, so gives it an 80.

The hunter judge thinks that the round of another bay, 789, is better than 456, but not as nice as 123, so gives it a score of 85.

In order to do this, the hunter judge has to hold onto the score sheet for the entire class.

The hunter judge USES the numerical score to document and keep track of the ORDER in which he/she prefers the horses.

The hunter judge ALWAYS knows which horse got the highest score

The dressage judge, on the other hand, assignes a score to each movement (and the collective marks), and then gives the score sheet to the runner. The judge does not know what total score any individual horse got until he/she checks the results after the class is over.

It is quite common for the dressage judge to check the posted results during her break IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHO WON the class he/she just judged.

I personally, would not call the hunter judging “on a curve”, but it is definitely based on RANKING the rounds in comparison to each other, rather than assigning a score without consideration of what other scores have been assigned.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8271861]
Fair enough but given that grooming and molesting a child can be a CRIMINAL violation in addition to a USEF rule violation–seems pretty newsworthy to me. Luckily not too many penalties handed down for that, but even if it involved a non-BNT-- it seems fairly newsworthy![/QUOTE]
The COTH article has 2 paragraphs about that case. Even though it was a Saddleseat trainer, not a discipline that COTH covers in general.

[Eliza_Hobbs]

1. BC and company have been around long enough to figure it out. If she didn’t want the horse drugged then she could have made darn sure the horse wasn’t. She didn’t.
2. Mrs. Serio, there is a reason, as a good attorney will tell you, not to make a comment if there is legal action pending.
   3.Is this Deflategate for the hunter world?

[Single_Oxer]

In respect to the “COTH covers GABA suspensions consistently” mantra…was there an article written about Winn Alden and her recent suspension for GABA, was she contacted for comment? I’m curious because I do remember her being sat down (should be coming up soon I would guess), but don’t remember anything on COTH about it. I believe the same thing happened to Laureeen Mackenzie? I don’t remember a press release about that one either.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8271905]
I have never experienced a local “yeehaw” show that even gets close to the chaos of an A show…and I’ve been to a lot of yeehaws…even run one myself. They are good for getting the horse out, around different jumps, in a warm up…but not good for chaos.

And just to note: ANY CA show is subject to drug testing by the CDFA, yeehaw or not. We pay a state drug free for any show entered.[/QUOTE]

Oh they’re out here. But they’re not near the city and they don’t have jumps.

Any California show where the classes cost more than $5 is subject to state drug testing, yes. So, the really really local shows that don’t want to mess with the paperwork have $4 classes. I’ve gone out and trotted the barrels with my dressage or jumping saddle (and even the horse is saying, “you know, I watched the last horse go, and I think we’re doing it wrong…pretty sure the last horse galloped”) but everyone’s been very friendly and happy to take my money to come out and play. There are similarly shows with inexpensive “Wenglish” classes (I’m totally stealing that adjective) on the flat.

It’s good to scope them out ahead of time so you know what the issues will be.

Our county fair has the classes on a grass field that will also host football, a rodeo, and sheepdog trials, and is adjacent to a ferris wheel and other rides. $2.50 a class, and cash prizes.

You’ve also got trail trials clinics, where they’ll set up a whole obstacle course of bombproofing events. I saw one over the winter, and one of the people cracked me up; she was dressed as a hiker with a big pink striped backpack, streamers all over her, and an enormous crinkly map that she’d try to hand up to each rider while cluelessly asking for directions.

So yes, these venues are out there, or you can make them by making your own fun crazy playday. There are plenty of ways to put eye-opening mileage on a horse. The problem is that too much of showing has become what is convenient for the trainers and sometimes the owners and not enough of what is convenient or comfortable for the horses. And taking every horse on the road, stabling in tents with no turnout, and having a lot of golf carts whizzing around is what is convenient for the trainers. That is fine, but it is an active choice, not something the Federation compels you to do against your better wishes or judgement.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8271905]
I have never experienced a local “yeehaw” show that even gets close to the chaos of an A show…and I’ve been to a lot of yeehaws…even run one myself. They are good for getting the horse out, around different jumps, in a warm up…but not good for chaos.

And just to note: ANY CA show is subject to drug testing by the CDFA, yeehaw or not. We pay a state drug free for any show entered.[/QUOTE]
Come to the 4H fair!!! And there’s one in every county, so you can go to one allllll summer long if you crave chaos!!!

[Tackpud]

[QUOTE=Eliza Hobbs;8271979]

1. BC and company have been around long enough to figure it out. If she didn’t want the horse drugged then she could have made darn sure the horse wasn’t. She didn’t.
2. Mrs. Serio, there is a reason, as a good attorney will tell you, not to make a comment if there is legal action pending.
   3.Is this Deflategate for the hunter world?[/QUOTE]

GABAgate… Love it!

[nccatnip]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272035]
Come to the 4H fair!!! And there’s one in every county, so you can go to one allllll summer long if you crave chaos!!![/QUOTE]

Exactly!

And FTR there are several non rated shows that are held near WEF almost year round that would suffice for experience with green beans.

[whbar158]

[QUOTE=jen-s;8270447]
Last I heard, doubles were still considered “conventional” albeit uncommon in the hunter ring.

As far as the rest of your post, my guess is that you’re about as familiar with dressage scoring as caballogurl is with hunter scoring. What your post sounds like is someone who crams their horse together, riding front to back, is going to score well. Since leaving the hunters for the event world several years ago, I’ve seen nothing of the sort.[/QUOTE]

I find that event riders do it less than straight dressage riders but lots and lots still skip early on the stretching and long and low that they really should work on more to really have a relaxed horse. No the event riders don’t seem to compress quite as hard, but a lot could still use to do more hunter type work of self carriage. As a whole dressage has allowed much much more contact and being held (sometimes looks forced) together compared to previous time periods. Much like hunters use to have more brilliance.

In all honesty I believe all the disciplines could benefit from each other in different ways.

[whbar158]

[QUOTE=inca;8271908]
Right - see my post above. I think most (I’m sure not all but most) clients of the BNTs don’t do anything with their horse without their trainer (or the assistant) being present. I would venture to guess the vast majority of those clients (again, we are talking about BNT clients) don’t own a truck and trailer so aren’t going to be hauling their horse to the local circuit. Personally I wouldn’t do the big A/AA circuits until I was able to consistently put in good trips on the local circuit. But, I also don’t ride with a BNT and don’t have an unlimited show budget![/QUOTE]

With so many A circuits now most BNT don’t have the option to go to the smaller shows now. Which is why shows started adding the smaller divisions so trainers could bring along greener horses and riders to the big shows. Now some large barns have trainers for the different levels that take them to different shows but with all the 2’6" divisions now it is quite easy to take a horse or rider to their first show at an A show.

A shows are wild? They are usually the calmest shows I have been to, since classes are spaced out over a period of days and classes larger there is a lot less rush around compared to smaller local shows I have done. Some need to take a look at an actual fair show. There is no comparison between the Hunter/Jumper week of the NC state fair (which doesn’t take place during the actual fair) and the actual all breed fair show, fire works every night, horses, mules, all disciplines running around I had a friend whose horse was terrified of saddle seat horses. Or the NC 4-H horse show where you couldn’t just show up and ride your class when you wanted, I remember one showmanship class with 80 people in it and you had to be there with your horse in hand at the beginning of the class to check in even if you were last to go. The people often would have close to 10 horses lined up to go jump if you missed your spot good chance you missed your class. Way busier and scarier than anything I have ever seen at an A show.

[foursocks]

Yeah, it is peas and carrots comparing a big A show to anything else, and while it is busy the general atmosphere back in the barns/tents is fairly calm. I think it is the schooling ring and the moments right before competition that are the most energizing, let’s call it, for many horses. Enough (positive) exposure to that and the good-minded ones will sort it out.

We used to take ours to the MN State Fair every summer because they ran an A show concurrent with the fair. Our seasoned show horses had to deal with cows, sheep, random people walking through the barns, draft horses hitched to all sorts of rigs, shaky tails, the noise of carnival rides, etc. etc. etc. And in the spring we would do Milwaukee Spring at the WI State Fair grounds, the second week of which ran concurrent with the Mother’s Day Race, a car race more or less next to the show arena. The horses generally settled down after a couple of days at these two venues but things were pretty scary at first, especially with the green horses. One of my junior hunters flipped over on top of me one year after spooking and slipping. Many never got totally used to that atmosphere, and everyone’s ears were stuffed for the race! The regular shows were oases of calm compared to that stuff.

Horses are horses. You manage them properly and the ones that have the goods to deal with being a show horse, mentally and physically, will figure it out. The ones that don’t shouldn’t be showing. Since this comes up against the trainer’s bottom line and the desires of the clients, however, instead we have drugging.

[vxf111]

Some AA shows are particularly cramped/crazy/chaotic/have things you don’t see elsewhere (Devon and WIHS) and others just tend to have more traffic than a smaller show (HITS). Don’t ask me why people who regularly walk hundreds of feet to turn horses out at home suddenly can’t go 5 feet without needing to ride a golf cart Very few rated shows are truly FROGGER-like. If you (collective you) MUST be on the road 24/7 and you MUST bring the greenies along and you CANNOT invest in time/training/letting them stay home and get their feet under them first and you MUST use a calming agent-- then use it and don’t show. Who says every horse must do every week of every circuit. What about what the horse himself needs?

[findeight]

[QUOTE=busylady;8271543]
Regarding the rule change, if it was inspired at all by the Inclusive situation, maybe this section explains Brigid’s “I’m not involved” position:

1.Trainers and other Persons Responsible, in the absence of substantial evidence to the contrary, are responsible and accountable under the penalty provisions of these rules. The trainer and other Persons Responsible are not relieved from such responsibility as a result of the lack or insufficiency of stable security.

Given that non one wants to actually discuss their feelings about the matter at hand (see my previous plea for your thoughts), let’s think of who could have snuck into Inclusive’s stall and poisoned him with GABA!! Obviously that is what happened…

On another note, has anyone read Kathy Serio’s latest rant on Facebook? The one about showing at WEF being way too stressful for a horse sans calming supplements…Holy cow, that woman really needs to step away from the keyboard.[/QUOTE]

The rule change goes into effect Dec 1 for the 2016 season. It’s not responsible for the lame excuses and finger pointing.

Re latest FB rant, perhaps FBWI? She asked what about Green Rider Green Horse? That’s her JOB and sometimes doing it properly means saying no to a number of situations ranging from unsuitable horses to unsuitable shows for the horse/rider oair. Already said I fully understand the threat of clients just moving the horse to a trainer who blows sunshine up their rears, never says no and does whatever it takes to make the horse sound and suitable, legal or not.

I get that. But it needs to stop. This thread is very calmative focused but, IMO, far worse things are done in the name of keeping an unsound horse going…vets share in that along with trainers afraid to be truthful and owners who don’t know, don’t care and will move the horse if anybody dares to say no.

[Rel6]

[QUOTE=whbar158;8272066]

A shows are wild? They are usually the calmest shows I have been to, since classes are spaced out over a period of days and classes larger there is a lot less rush around compared to smaller local shows I have done. Some need to take a look at an actual fair show. There is no comparison between the Hunter/Jumper week of the NC state fair (which doesn’t take place during the actual fair) and the actual all breed fair show, fire works every night, horses, mules, all disciplines running around I had a friend whose horse was terrified of saddle seat horses. Or the NC 4-H horse show where you couldn’t just show up and ride your class when you wanted, I remember one showmanship class with 80 people in it and you had to be there with your horse in hand at the beginning of the class to check in even if you were last to go. The people often would have close to 10 horses lined up to go jump if you missed your spot good chance you missed your class. Way busier and scarier than anything I have ever seen at an A show.[/QUOTE]

UHH I’ve been to a ton of local shows, including state fairs and have always always found them to be far more calm than A shows. We have two state fairs right near me that we show at. At state fairs I have never almost been run over by a golf cart, dirk bike, car, or biker (just your typical morning at WEF), had to mentally prepare my horse for a train screaming by (Vermont), cross a bridge over a pond (HITs), or walk along a racetrack where horses are being galloped (Saratoga).

But YMMV, and what your horse finds concerning. My horse was more concerned with horses running by him than cows or ponies hitched to carts at state fair, and I was certainly more concerned by being taken out by a preteen on a dirt bike.