If the golf carts and dirt bikes are the real villains here, we could of course ban them from the horse areas.
:lol: ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Let’s remember Inclusive isn’t a green horse, and Tori certainly isn’t a green rider. I don’t believe the Serio horses that got caught were green either. The issue, at least with respect to these violations, isn’t whether green horses need chemical help in order to adjust to show grounds. Inclusive was drugged so he’d go around quiet enough to win. Did anyone catch the Devon derby? He drug Tori around the course, with the commentator noting 'he just drug her right past that distance" or something along those lines. It wasn’t pretty and she didn’t make the cut. I’m guessing he wasn’t drugged.
It’s interesting to compare the response to this incident to the response to Reed Kessler’s ride on Mika at WEF. There was pure outrage with respect to Reed. The Colvin/Parker group, um…pretty much crickets. If Brigid were Teri, would there be more outrage? Or is getting rough with your horse a worse offense than drugging your horse (perhaps because the latter is an accepted part of the hunter culture??). Or is it simply because Tori is more likeable than Reed? Tori is certainly the darling of the show world, the kid with humble beginnings and tremendous talent who works her tail off and wins everything. Hers is a Cinderella story (does that make Betsee the fairy god mother???), and lots of children idolize her. So what comes of the latest part of her story? Most likely a lot more people concluding drugs are necessary if you want to win.
[QUOTE=vxf111;8271837]
Well, maybe you can’t do it and be on the road 24/7 and win all the everythings… but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. It just means it can’t be done without compromise. I’ll compromise some time and ribbons. Guess some people won’t![/QUOTE]
One could argue that you aren’t the one compromising–the people who are too busy to properly train are.
[QUOTE=Darkwave;8271447]
I get your point. But one thought (and I know we’ve discussed before) - what is the definition of “trainer”? Is that defined anywhere.
I’ve heard some people say that it’s the person responsible for the training and care of the horse - but I couldn’t find that from a quick scan of the rulebook.
Sometimes to me, it seems that the assumption on this board is that “trainer” should be signed by “the person whose suspension will most damage the barn/stable/program he/she is associated with.” I.e. the big name trainer. But I’m not sure that’s the right answer - it’s just the one we want. Because we want to see the BNT go down, not the stable manager.
Where is “trainer” defined?[/QUOTE]
What difference does it make? The title could be “Buck Stopper” or “Designated Punishee (should the horse test dirty).”
It doesn’t matter who gets that job among the group of people who show the horse, so far as they have a substantial interest in keeping the sport clean.
[QUOTE=busylady;8272295]
Let’s remember Inclusive isn’t a green horse, and Tori certainly isn’t a green rider. I don’t believe the Serio horses that got caught were green either. The issue, at least with respect to these violations, isn’t whether green horses need chemical help in order to adjust to show grounds. Inclusive was drugged so he’d go around quiet enough to win. Did anyone catch the Devon derby? He drug Tori around the course, with the commentator noting 'he just drug her right past that distance" or something along those lines. It wasn’t pretty and she didn’t make the cut. I’m guessing he wasn’t drugged.
It’s interesting to compare the response to this incident to the response to Reed Kessler’s ride on Mika at WEF. There was pure outrage with respect to Reed. Tori, um…pretty much crickets. If Brigid were Teri, would there be more outrage? Or is getting rough with your horse a worse offense than drugging your horse (perhaps because the latter is an accepted part of the hunter culture??). Or is it simply because Tori is more likeable than Reed? Tori is certainly the darling of the show world, the kid with humble beginnings and tremendous talent who works her tail off and wins everything. Hers is a Cinderella story (does that make Betsee the fairy god mother???), and lots of children idolize her. So what comes of the latest part of her story? Most likely a lot more people concluding drugs are necessary if you want to win.[/QUOTE]
The difference is Reed was clearly, unambiguously at fault there (debatable how BIG of a fault it was), while there is no “proof” of Tori’s wrongdoing.
Longtimelurker, point taken. I suppose I should have referred to the lack of outrage at the situation, not toward Tori specifically.
[QUOTE=busylady;8271543]
On another note, has anyone read Kathy Serio’s latest rant on Facebook? The one about showing at WEF being way too stressful for a horse sans calming supplements…Holy cow, that woman really needs to step away from the keyboard.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t read Kathy Serio’s rant but if she wants to spearhead the effort to undo the Megafication of horse show franchises, I’d be happy. Seriously, people, where’s the Sherman Anti-Trust Act when the horses need protection?
I’d be quit happy to rewind the tape to pre-Mileage Rule and pre-pax HITS days when you could go to smaller, unique charity horse shows.
Or, Kathy Serio should go to Quarter Horse Congress and see how the other half lives. Those horse are asked to tolerate levels of chaos and crowding in anarchistic schooling rings that we English types can’t even imagine. And they do it. You can see a horse being ponied through the midway (complete with lines for BBQ and all manner of human hanging out), wearing the saddle he just won balanced on top of the saddle he showed in. Of course, no one said these guys weren’t drugged to the gills. My point, however, is that 1) not all of 'em can be that stoned; and 2) the average level of chaos an AQHA is taught to tolerate is higher than Serio seems to think horses can accept.
If it can’t be done without drugs by the really talented, top of the game pros…how come us little nobodies seem to have managed? I would think the really top-of-the-line pros would be the FEW who could manage on talent alone, without the need for pharmaceutical help 
I mean, Tommy can SERIOUSLY RIDE. If he can’t get by on talent… how is any normal person supposed to?!
When Tina Konyot was yellow carded recently at the dressage Jr/YR Championships, she admitted that she deserved it, but that given the same circumstances, she would do it again.
She also posted on the COTH Facebook article, and attempted to find a sympathetic audience. Her posts were in all CAPITALS and the more she posted, the worse she appeared.
Now comes Mrs. Serio who’s following the same play book. The more she comments on FB, the worse she looks.
Both professional trainers, well known in their disciplines, have given us a clear picture on how they handle adversity in their chosen careers.
Scary stuff. 
Maybe there should be “How to Handle the Media” seminars for trainers, like there are for upcoming young riders.
[QUOTE=vxf111;8272366]
If it can’t be done without drugs by the really talented, top of the game pros…how come us little nobodies seem to have managed? I would think the really top-of-the-line pros would be the FEW who could manage on talent alone, without the need for pharmaceutical help I mean, Tommy can SERIOUSLY RIDE. If he can’t get by on talent… how is any normal person supposed to?![/QUOTE]
Tommy can seriously ride and he is a very good horseman but he is 66 years old still doing difficult and green horses for people. I doubt that at 66 any of us here on this board will be taking green horses anywhere, much less to the county fair for desensitization. That is not a justification for using banned substances but just to point out his humanity.
[QUOTE=Janet;8271965]
I tend to explain it that hunters are judged by ordinal numbers (first, second, third), by direct comparison between the horses. Dressage is judged by cardinal numbers (one, two three), and comparison to a standard for each movement.
For instance-
The hunter judge likes the round of the bay number 123, so gives it a score of 90.
The hunter judge likes the round of the gray number 456, but not as much, so gives it an 80.
The hunter judge thinks that the round of another bay, 789, is better than 456, but not as nice as 123, so gives it a score of 85.
In order to do this, the hunter judge has to hold onto the score sheet for the entire class.
The hunter judge USES the numerical score to document and keep track of the ORDER in which he/she prefers the horses.
The hunter judge ALWAYS knows which horse got the highest score
The dressage judge, on the other hand, assignes a score to each movement (and the collective marks), and then gives the score sheet to the runner. The judge does not know what total score any individual horse got until he/she checks the results after the class is over.
It is quite common for the dressage judge to check the posted results during her break IN ORDER TO FIND OUT WHO WON the class he/she just judged.
I personally, would not call the hunter judging “on a curve”, but it is definitely based on RANKING the rounds in comparison to each other, rather than assigning a score without consideration of what other scores have been assigned.[/QUOTE]
Apropos of not too much at all, years ago I was at a California show, in the A/O 36+ with Victor Hugo Vidal judging. The class was a demolition derby. Many problems resulting in scores of 40, and the rest did not ride well either. After the jog, VHV came into the ring and told the lineup that he was disgusted with us, that no one deserved to win. So the highest ribbon he was awarding was 3rd. Not sure how the office dealt with that as far as Ch and Res went, and I am not sure that anyone else could have gotten away with it, but VHV made his point and I will never forget it.
Between horses being drugged to get around a course, riders looking like they are up the horses necks with their asses in the air, the same people winning OVER and OVER on “calm” horses, I think they should start the whole thing over again and maybe this time, try to emulate what an actual “hunter” used to do. Outside courses, riders actually looking professional over the jumps, stricter drug testing and punishments for those who are caught. It is such a shame that something that was once a pleasure to watch has turned into what it is today - a sad showing of zombielike horses jumping the same jumps time after time after time. People like Kelly Farmer may win lots of blues, but she is horrible to watch in the saddle and God knows how many drugs those horses have in them to accomplish this task. The hunters are an embarrassment in the horse world…
[QUOTE=busylady;8272295]
I don’t believe the Serio horses that got caught were green either. .[/QUOTE]
The one at Upperville was a Pregreen horse, who, according to Kathy, stopped that day.
[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8272407]
Tommy can seriously ride and he is a very good horseman but he is 66 years old still doing difficult and green horses for people. I doubt that at 66 any of us here on this board will be taking green horses anywhere, much less to the county fair for desensitization. That is not a justification for using banned substances but just to point out his humanity.[/QUOTE]
Maybe there comes a time when you realize you need help/assistants/people who bounce better than you?
And actually, as noted previously…I did take my green 3/4 year old to all sorts of crazy places to desensitise him. Including fairs. And survived. 
I might be a crash test dummy (or just a dummy) but I didn’t see calming supplements as a better solution to miles and life.
[QUOTE=Davignport;8272443]
Between horses being drugged to get around a course, riders looking like they are up the horses necks with their asses in the air, the same people winning OVER and OVER on “calm” horses, I think they should start the whole thing over again and maybe this time, try to emulate what an actual “hunter” used to do. Outside courses, riders actually looking professional over the jumps, stricter drug testing and punishments for those who are caught. It is such a shame that something that was once a pleasure to watch has turned into what it is today - a sad showing of zombielike horses jumping the same jumps time after time after time. People like Kelly Farmer may win lots of blues, but she is horrible to watch in the saddle and God knows how many drugs those horses have in them to accomplish this task. The hunters are an embarrassment in the horse world…[/QUOTE]
Watch Mindful’s trip today in the derby finals. It is what a traditional hunter goes like. Mindful is one of the nicest hunters in my lifetime and I was lucky to watch some of the best from decades ago. Miss Lucy also just went around in beautiful classic style and was fresh enough to play a little. Her scores were still high 80’s so I don’t think the whole industry needs to be scrapped just yet:)
[QUOTE=titan;8269325]
But not set down… How does that fly???
LYNN JAYNE of Elgin, IL, violated Chapter 4, GR410-411 of this Federation, in connection with the Showplace Spring Spectacular
I Horse Show held on June 3-8, 2014, in that she, as trainer, exhibited the horse CONFESSION after it had been administered and/or
contained in its body gabapentin. Given the unusual factual context of this case, the Hearing Committee ruled that a suspension was
unwarranted. Therefore, for this violation of the rules, the Hearing Committee members present directed that LYNN JAYNE be
censured pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1a and fined $4,000 pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1j. It was further directed that for this
violation of the rules, CAITLIN CREEL, of Kildeer, IL, as owner, must return for redistribution all trophies, prizes, ribbons, and
monies, if any, won by CONFESSION at said competition, and must pay a $300 fee to the competition in connection with this
penalty pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1g[/QUOTE]
Interesting that this has disappeared from the USEF website…:no:
Lynn Jayne is a member of the Board of Directors of the USHJA and President of the USHJA Foundation.
Why was this removed from the website?
[QUOTE=Rel6;8272219]
UHH I’ve been to a ton of local shows, including state fairs and have always always found them to be far more calm than A shows. We have two state fairs right near me that we show at. At state fairs I have never almost been run over by a golf cart, dirk bike, car, or biker (just your typical morning at WEF), had to mentally prepare my horse for a train screaming by (Vermont), cross a bridge over a pond (HITs), or walk along a racetrack where horses are being galloped (Saratoga).
But YMMV, and what your horse finds concerning. My horse was more concerned with horses running by him than cows or ponies hitched to carts at state fair, and I was certainly more concerned by being taken out by a preteen on a dirt bike.[/QUOTE]
Well dirt bikes and golf carts are at those shows too, almost most barns use golf carts at home, most barns have preteens at home those are standard. I wouldn’t expect a horse to be bomb proof the first time a train goes by but most adjust pretty quickly. Bridge? Maybe one should get out of the ring a bit. Walking while horses are galloping? Welcome to riding while horses are turned out…
Sorry shows are not that crazy. Crowded at times yet, but crazy? A shows are pretty tame. If your horse comes unglued by things like that then in reality they are NOT good for the hunter ring no matter how good they jump or move. Everything I have seen at hunter shows could easily be worked on at home. And if your horse can’t handle the show environment then they don’t need to be a show horse.
I heard 3rd hand (so you can take it for what it is worth) that the next hearing will not focus on the propriety of the findings from the first hearing, but instead it will be concentrating on the length of time it took to get the results of the first test back. The USEF has admitted that it should not have taken 4 months to notify the owner and trainer of the positive result.
Because of the delay, Tommy Serio will be maintaining that he was not aware of the problem with the supplement, so he continued using it, resulting in the second positive test.
Had the results come back within the standard 2 months, Tommy would have immediately stopped using the supplement, so there would not have been a second positive.
Since the size of the fine and length of suspension was based on 2 positive tests, the USEF should not consider the second one when deciding on the punishment.
IMO, that is a valid argument and TS should have a good chance of being successful at the second hearing.
(I a assuming that the information I heard is correct. If it is not then please ignore this post. )
I know when I was an assistant, I heard of a lot of trainers drugging horses for the amateurs/kids for them to be quiet enough. Instead of training the rider to ride better, or training the horse to be more quiet or lunging/riding before the class, they always went to drugging.
I always thought it was really sad and I have always just lunged my horse if they were fresh. But my horses also don’t go to 15 shows plus a year so there isnt a worry of soundness like probably most of these horses that are showing so much.
I wish trainers spent more time teaching people to ride better and also not allowing poor riders to be showing in divisions they clearly shouldn’t be. And training horses to perform better.
In the above instances it really boggles my mind because these people are all good riders and these horses are top show horses.
It’s sad.
I would applaud the hunters going back to what they used to be, because honestly I have had to switch my green horses over to the jumpers because the pace and overall comatose attitude in the hunters is something I can not compete with!!!
[QUOTE=skydy;8272505]
Interesting that this has disappeared from the USEF website…:no:
Lynn Jayne is a member of the Board of Directors of the USHJA and President of the USHJA Foundation.
Why was this removed from the website?[/QUOTE]
Well geez, that’s not suspicious :rolleyes:
