Say it isn't so....Inclusive on USEF Drug List

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272366]
If it can’t be done without drugs by the really talented, top of the game pros…how come us little nobodies seem to have managed? I would think the really top-of-the-line pros would be the FEW who could manage on talent alone, without the need for pharmaceutical help I mean, Tommy can SERIOUSLY RIDE. If he can’t get by on talent… how is any normal person supposed to?![/QUOTE]

Because it’s now an “industry” and not a show. These BNTs bring too many horses to a show and can’t possibly give each individual horse the attention it needs to perform properly, even if they have multiple staff assisting in getting horses to the ring. A horse that possibly needs more riding, hand-walking, lunging, whatever to get around a course properly is a problem. And, if it’s a spectacular mover/jumper, I think some trainers are tempted to take a shortcut to get it to the ring “prepared.”

[oldernewbie]

[QUOTE=comingback;8272556]
Well geez, that’s not suspicious :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Especially weird since it’s quoted here and in the COTH article. Pretty hard to make it go poof! after making it public. So strange!

[skydy]

[QUOTE=titan;8269325]
But not set down… How does that fly???

LYNN JAYNE of Elgin, IL, violated Chapter 4, GR410-411 of this Federation, in connection with the Showplace Spring Spectacular
I Horse Show held on June 3-8, 2014, in that she, as trainer, exhibited the horse CONFESSION after it had been administered and/or
contained in its body gabapentin. Given the unusual factual context of this case, the Hearing Committee ruled that a suspension was
unwarranted. Therefore, for this violation of the rules, the Hearing Committee members present directed that LYNN JAYNE be
censured pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1a and fined $4,000 pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1j. It was further directed that for this
violation of the rules, CAITLIN CREEL, of Kildeer, IL, as owner, must return for redistribution all trophies, prizes, ribbons, and
monies, if any, won by CONFESSION at said competition, and must pay a $300 fee to the competition in connection with this
penalty pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1g[/QUOTE]

I found this violation by Lynn Jayne from 2013 https://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2013/JulyAdministrativePenalties.pdf

But the 2014 violation has disappeared.

[vxf111]

IIRC if the violation is contested it either never appears (until the contesting is through) or if it was released in error, it gets taken down pending the contesting.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8272563]
Because it’s now an “industry” and not a show. These BNTs bring too many horses to a show and can’t possibly give each individual horse the attention it needs to perform properly, even if they have multiple staff assisting in getting horses to the ring. A horse that possibly needs more riding, hand-walking, lunging, whatever to get around a course properly is a problem. And, if it’s a spectacular mover/jumper, I think some trainers are tempted to take a shortcut to get it to the ring “prepared.”[/QUOTE]

That’s a “won’t” not a “can’t” then. Which, in some ways, seems worse to me. Little Betty Nobody who lacks skills and drugs her horse in frustration seems worse to me than John Bigshot who knows the horse needs more miles but is too focused on the ribbons and the money to bother doing what he knows needs to be done and what he COULD do if he’d reprioritize.

[comingback]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272621]
IIRC if the violation is contested it either never appears (until the contesting is through) or if it was released in error, it gets taken down pending the contesting.[/QUOTE]

Here is the cached copy of the PDF: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:EsgcmnrAb90J:https://www.usef.org/documents/rules/HearingCommittee/2015/JulyRulings.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Would having the hearing committee review this case be considered contesting?

[skydy]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272621]
IIRC if the violation is contested it either never appears (until the contesting is through) or if it was released in error, it gets taken down pending the contesting.[/QUOTE]

It seems unlikely that Lynn Jayne would contest a ruling that lets her off without a suspension doesn’t it? Unless she’s jumping on the Serio bandwagon and arguing the test itself… It seems that the Chronicle would have mentioned any protest by Lynn Jayne in their article.

It is a report of “actions taken” in May. Any protest would have happened way before this was released.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=skydy;8272629]
It seems unlikely that Lynn Jayne would contest a ruling that lets her off without a suspension doesn’t it? Unless she’s jumping on the Serio bandwagon and arguing the test itself…[/QUOTE]

If I thought I could be vindicated and was innocent, I might contest a fine even without a suspension. I’m not in her shoes. There was some reference to “under the circumstances” which makes me think there are some unusual/sympathetic facts that she might feel warrant an appeal. Hard to say what she’s thinking.

[skydy]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272634]
If I thought I could be vindicated and was innocent, I might contest a fine even without a suspension. I’m not in her shoes. There was some reference to “under the circumstances” which makes me think there are some unusual/sympathetic facts that she might feel warrant an appeal. Hard to say what she’s thinking.[/QUOTE]

It sounds as if they have already taken whatever it is that excuses riding a horse in violation of the medication rules.

Brigid Colvin protested and her case is still up on the site.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=skydy;8272641]
It sounds as if they have already taken whatever it is that excuses riding a horse in violation of the medication rules.

Brigid Colvin protested and her case is still up on the site.[/QUOTE]

She may feel on appeal that she’d get a different outcome. Why does anyone appeal anything? They think what happened is unfair and they might do better. Is she right? I have no idea.

It doesn’t seem consistent, I agree. That’s why I said IIRC–because it doesn’t seem to be happening now.

We don’t KNOW that BC actually contested (or filed it yet) just that she said so. I think there’s more to contesting than just saying it.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272624]
That’s a “won’t” not a “can’t” then. Which, in some ways, seems worse to me. Little Betty Nobody who lacks skills and drugs her horse in frustration seems worse to me than John Bigshot who knows the horse needs more miles but is too focused on the ribbons and the money to bother doing what he knows needs to be done and what he COULD do if he’d reprioritize.[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s an interesting take on what I said.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8272671]
Well, that’s an interesting take on what I said.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t repeating what you said, I was commenting further on the entire situation.

[bjd2013]

All of this has really just shown how much of a “s#%* hole” this whole thing is for trainers, and other people involved.

I can only imagine how hard it is for a lot of BNT’s and other trainers alike. You have Susie who really wants her 4YO to debut in the Pre-Greens but he’s not really ready. You know he’d be fine with more mileage, but you can’t make your customer mad or she will leave. So you do what you have to do and that’s show the horse. Well maybe Susie won’t be happy if the horse doesn’t jog because it makes some green mistakes, so you have to make sure it’s quiet. So you give it some PP or whatever is your choice of poison and make it go around.

I honestly don’t think a lot of people want to take a “shortcut” it’s a matter of producing horses for customers so they can make a living. Everyone goes to where the winners are. A lot of people don’t care about learning or doing it the correct way, they only care about that 50 cent ribbon and the points.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8272407]
I doubt that at 66 any of us here on this board will be taking green horses anywhere, much less to the county fair for desensitization. That is not a justification for using banned substances but just to point out his humanity.[/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself.

I am 61 and nowhere near as good a rider as him, and I have a sometimes difficult greeen 4 yo that I have been taking places to desensitize her since she was 2.

She is going to her first “real” under-saddle show, at the Virginia Horse Center in Lexington, next weekend.

I fully expect to be " taking green horses anywhere" for desensitization in 5 years.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8272366]
If it can’t be done without drugs by the really talented, top of the game pros…how come us little nobodies seem to have managed? I would think the really top-of-the-line pros would be the FEW who could manage on talent alone, without the need for pharmaceutical help I mean, Tommy can SERIOUSLY RIDE. If he can’t get by on talent… how is any normal person supposed to?![/QUOTE]

To paraphrase GHM, talent is not a substitute for hard work.

[bjd2013]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8272743]
To paraphrase GHM, talent is not a substitute for hard work.[/QUOTE]

Tommy is a hard worker and very talented. I don’t really know how to say this - but his last wife choice hasn’t really helped him I think…I’ve always looked up to Tommy and actually a couple of weeks ago at Tryon he was doing some 2’6" stuff with babies and they were definitely being “babies” and being “hard” and he rode through it, and by the next class they were going great. To me his horses never looked “drugged” and I’ve only ever heard about how much of a horsemen he is and witnessed it myself. I think it’s quite misfortunate that he’s in the situation he’s in.

[Darkwave]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8272697]
All of this has really just shown how much of a “s#%* hole” this whole thing is for trainers, and other people involved.

I can only imagine how hard it is for a lot of BNT’s and other trainers alike. You have Susie who really wants her 4YO to debut in the Pre-Greens but he’s not really ready. You know he’d be fine with more mileage, but you can’t make your customer mad or she will leave. So you do what you have to do and that’s show the horse. Well maybe Susie won’t be happy if the horse doesn’t jog because it makes some green mistakes, so you have to make sure it’s quiet. So you give it some PP or whatever is your choice of poison and make it go around.

I honestly don’t think a lot of people want to take a “shortcut” it’s a matter of producing horses for customers so they can make a living. Everyone goes to where the winners are. A lot of people don’t care about learning or doing it the correct way, they only care about that 50 cent ribbon and the points.[/QUOTE]

Also, when trainer #1, who doesn’t drug, has difficulty with the fresh horse, the client moves to trainer #2, who does drug, but denies it to client. If trainer #1 points out that trainer #2 is drugging, client claims trainer #1 is just bitter.

Creates a situation where trainers may need to use “a bit of something” to keep clients happy, or clients leave. And hard for someone who has done the horses all his or her life to try to make a career change.

Plus, I’m sure there’s a lot of rationalization going on - easy to point out someone worse than you, and believe that you’re innocent by comparison. When you drive 67 on a 55 MPH road and get ticketed, the response is usually shock and indignation if everyone else was driving 75.

[Ghazzu]

Potato Richardson managed to do a pretty decent job for an older rider recently, and in a discipline with a NFS rule, as well.

And I’d bet a substantial sum Denny Emerson isn’t using any pharmaceutical assistance with his greenies .

[IPEsq]

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that Tommy himself doesn’t work hard…more of a general statement about why talented pros may feel the need to drug the horses–there is a training step being skipped or that is being replaced with drugs. That his wife posted the whole tirade basically saying how can we expect to get green horses to the show ring without a myriad of “preparation” tools is really unfortunate, particularly in light of the sanctions.

[scrbear11]

"Aug. 14 Update: USEF has removed record of Jayne’s penalty from the July hearing committee report. The organization hasn’t yet responded to requests for explanation. "

The update to the COTH article. I bet money she threatened with some sort of lawsuit. Defamation of Character… Something along those lines.