[QUOTE=IPEsq;8272967]
Sometimes, testing takes forever when you’ve got a horse that doesn’t pee on cue, and the tester that picked that horse has to stay with horse the ENTIRE TIME after owner/trainer/rider is notified that horse is selected for testing. [/QUOTE]
Why not test only blood?
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8272955]
But in our sport anything can be considered cheating. Lunging? Why do you lunge? Typically to make them quiet and to get any bucks out. Bute? Banamine? Sure they should be for comfort, but what about masking pain? Robaxin? Same thing. Dex? Sure for hives or something related, but others use it to make them drowsy. Then that leads you to naturally accruing substances like Magnesium, you can feed it, inject it, and it won’t test.
My point is, you won’t be able to stop it. And if we get FEI strict, the horses are going to have to suffer more than they already do. Something has to give.[/QUOTE]
That is why many of the drugs have certain levels, honestly I believe until the judging changes this particular type of cheating. Any sport has cheating but that doesn’t make it RIGHT. Every sport has its issues, and we should be working to help fix it. Honestly the amount of quiet at the top levels is a little much, a 3’6" hunter doesn’t need to be going to same speed as a short stirrup horse. No you shouldn’t be hanging on for dear life and fighting with the horse, but a little more pace would be nice. No a horse shouldn’t buck, but look a little fresh? Sure. Look alive please. I LOVE hunters, I love the challenge of perfection for every stride, but I personally HATE how quiet the horses are and do not find them as fun to ride.
It does not have to be an all or nothing, 99% of fed through supplements designed to calm are not sedating horses but helping them relax there is a difference there between sedation and helping tension and many of them only work if the horse has a deficiency. Of course some abuse this, it happens but most fed through supplements are not sedating the horse the ones that have the possibility are illegal.
People are always going to be looking for loop holes, it is the organizations job to fill them in as they find them.
I also think owners should be held responsible, at this point outside of just being associated with a cheater and giving back prize money there is no real punishment.
Does USEF provide information for how many horses are tested in a year? I’m wondering, if drugging is as prevalent as everyone here says it is, why aren’t the official notices (they are released monthly right?) that report infractions much longer than they are?
I’m also wondering why no one has demanded that Jen Alfano’s horse get tested. That stumble was similar to the one that Bases Loaded took with Lillie Keenan a few years ago (probably worse since the horse looked like it was dead for a few seconds). Where’s the witch hunt? Oh right, it’s Jen Alfano, not Glefke/Farmer.
I’m not at all implying that Jen drugs her horses, but if a stumble and fall is going to create outrage and a demand for a drug test the way it did for Bases Loaded, the same should apply to ANY horse that stumbles and falls in the show ring.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8272955]
But in our sport anything can be considered cheating. Lunging? Why do you lunge? Typically to make them quiet and to get any bucks out. Bute? Banamine? Sure they should be for comfort, but what about masking pain? Robaxin? Same thing. Dex? Sure for hives or something related, but others use it to make them drowsy. Then that leads you to naturally accruing substances like Magnesium, you can feed it, inject it, and it won’t test.
My point is, you won’t be able to stop it. And if we get FEI strict, the horses are going to have to suffer more than they already do. Something has to give.[/QUOTE]
It is unclear to me whether you are setting up strawmen or not.
Any road:
There are some specific rules in existence, the flouting of which is considered cheating.
For example, there are specified maximum permissible limits for NSAIDs. Staying below the threshold is fine; exceeding the limits may be construed as cheating.
Being a pro trainer and riding in the A/O division is cheating.
I’ll settle for enforcement of those, and potentially of others, should thy be proposed and voted in.
We haven’t yet stopped people from committing murder or robbing the elderly, but I am loathe to discontinue the attempt.
[QUOTE=caballogurl;8272977]
Why not test only blood?[/QUOTE]
It is my understanding that it is less expensive to test urine than blood, but the testers will take blood if urine sample is not available within a reasonable time frame.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8273039]
I’m not at all implying that Jen drugs her horses, but if a stumble and fall is going to create outrage and a demand for a drug test the way it did for Bases Loaded, the same should apply to ANY horse that stumbles and falls in the show ring.[/QUOTE]
ynl063w - I agree if a horse falls or looks extremely loopy, a steward or judge should flag the horse for testing. But from my discussions with a judge a few years back, judges are not allowed to flag a horse for testing even if they are highly suspicious the horse has been doped. My understanding is testing is completely random. Now I am not sure if a steward can flag a horse for testing. I do believe if a horse passes away at a show, blood is required.
Does anyone know if a steward or a judge can request a horse be tested? My understanding was no, at least for a judge. But I have not thoroughly researched the subject.
[QUOTE=findeight;8270311]
Dont assume Hunters are on some isolated island of substance abuse. Any time there is money and pressure to perform, people will seek an added edge. In any sport.[/QUOTE]
FindEight - you hit the nail on the head. The name Lance Armstrong comes to mind.
[QUOTE=caballogurl;8273064]
ynl063w - I agree if a horse falls or looks extremely loopy, a steward or judge should flag the horse for testing. But from my discussions with a judge a few years back, judges are not allowed to flag a horse for testing even if they are highly suspicious the horse has been doped. My understanding is testing is completely random. Now I am not sure if a steward can flag a horse for testing. I do believe if a horse passes away at a show, blood is required.
Does anyone know if a steward or a judge can request a horse be tested? My understanding was no, at least for a judge. But I have not thoroughly researched the subject.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t saying that ANY horse should be specifically targeted in any official capacity. I was speaking to the outrage here on this board. Where are all the people who cried foul when Bases Loaded fell, now that Jen Alfano’s horse fell. My point is that this board is very biased when it comes to the outrage expressed when we all see something happen on a live feed. The level of emotion displayed here is completely dependent on WHO experiences something unusual at a show. And that is why it is hard to take anything posted here without a huge helping of salt.
I’m not setting up a strawman analogy, simply saying things that are legal can even be abused. I grew up showing at the big shows, and still do. One of my horses I showed as a kid received so much prep it was unbelievable. Now that I know better, I wouldn’t even waste time or money to do it.
Yes there are legal things, that can be used within legal limits but it doesn’t mean it’s not being abused.
The USEF is making it harder and harder for horses to show, because they haven’t adjusted their judging standards. Like I said, my Baby Green horse can lay down a solid trip and thin after a lead change shake his head, or drop it like he wants to play and be the bottom of the class. I’m sure if I did more “prep” he wouldn’t do that, but I don’t think it’s necessary because he’s 4 and he’s s horse.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8273039]
I’m not at all implying that Jen drugs her horses, but if a stumble and fall is going to create outrage and a demand for a drug test the way it did for Bases Loaded, the same should apply to ANY horse that stumbles and falls in the show ring.[/QUOTE]
Cue the GGT-type footing haters on COTH: If I’m gonna get tested every time my horse trips…
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8273082]
Cue the GGT-type footing haters on COTH: If I’m gonna get tested every time my horse trips…[/QUOTE]
Aaaannnd, another one who completely failed to comprehend my point.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8272697]
All of this has really just shown how much of a “s#%* hole” this whole thing is for trainers, and other people involved.
I can only imagine how hard it is for a lot of BNT’s and other trainers alike. You have Susie who really wants her 4YO to debut in the Pre-Greens but he’s not really ready. You know he’d be fine with more mileage, but you can’t make your customer mad or she will leave. So you do what you have to do and that’s show the horse. Well maybe Susie won’t be happy if the horse doesn’t jog because it makes some green mistakes, so you have to make sure it’s quiet. So you give it some PP or whatever is your choice of poison and make it go around.
I honestly don’t think a lot of people want to take a “shortcut” it’s a matter of producing horses for customers so they can make a living. Everyone goes to where the winners are. A lot of people don’t care about learning or doing it the correct way, they only care about that 50 cent ribbon and the points.[/QUOTE]
This happens – doesn’t make it right. There is something called integrity – in the end integrity matters and those that have it tend to be around a long time and garner tremendous respect - and do well professionally and financially.
Integrity includes being honest with your clients about what is and is not possible. It means realizing that you cannot please everyone and that some people will leave because they want the “fast” way. It also means taking more time to explain your program and decisions and to make your client a “partner” in the development of the horse. No one ever said doing it right was easy, just that in the long run its a lot more satisfying and its right.
Judging standards are not getting better, despite the push for improvement over the past five years. In the COTH article on the winner of the pre-green incentive program, the rider and owner of the winner is quoted more or less as saying that her horse is a standout because it has such an elegant and very slow canter. It’s a “warmblood of unrecorded breeding”, and quite honestly when I read the story all I was reminded of the current Western Pleasure lope. The slower the horse can crawl around the course, have a dead tail and ears, still hit the striding and changes, and leave the rails up, the better it will place. If horses must crawl to win, then drugs are almost inevitable.
Western Pleasure people seem to often permanently block tails so they won’t show tension. Will showhunters come to that?
As an old foxhunter, I do wish the name of the sport would change to something more descriptive.
OT, but did y’all know that nerved horses can’t show FEI?
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8273087]
Aaaannnd, another one who completely failed to comprehend my point.[/QUOTE]
I get your point, I tried making a similar one a few pages back…can you imagine if Scott had signed as trainer???
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8272967]
And, it’s really expensive. When I used to be an amateur bike racer in the mid-Atlantic, our local organization looked into ways to try to get some testing done at our level, because after all, we pay into the USADA fees with our memberships. It was going to be very difficult to implement regular random testing, much less mandatory testing. We looked into it because there had been some stories of masters level amateur racers getting caught at some big events that pissed people off. I mean, we know the pros cheat, but amateurs? Really? Yes. Just like Suzie Ammie h/j rider or her BNT might cheat.
I think it would be very difficult to have the testing staff available to test that volume of horses at a show, especially the big shows with umpteen divisions. Sometimes, testing takes forever when you’ve got a horse that doesn’t pee on cue, and the tester that picked that horse has to stay with horse the ENTIRE TIME after owner/trainer/rider is notified that horse is selected for testing.
I’m not saying that mandatory testing is bad. I’m saying it’s expensive. And showing is expensive enough already. Who do we think is going to bear the cost of mandatory testing of at least 2 horses per division, every division, every week?[/QUOTE]
It is expensive. However, priorities…Perhaps some of the “incentive” prize money can be used to clean up the sport. Until corruption, in this case the drugging of horses, is addressed in a meaningful manner the sport will (and is well on its way to) become a mockery of what it was intended to be.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8273102]
Judging standards are not getting better, despite the push for improvement over the past five years. In the COTH article on the winner of the pre-green incentive program, the rider and owner of the winner is quoted more or less as saying that her horse is a standout because it has such an elegant and very slow canter. It’s a “warmblood of unrecorded breeding”, and quite honestly when I read the story all I was reminded of the current Western Pleasure lope. The slower the horse can crawl around the course, have a dead tail and ears, still hit the striding and changes, and leave the rails up, the better it will place. If horses must crawl to win, then drugs are almost inevitable.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the term “slow canter” is being used in the way you think it is. It’s not “slow” in terms of the horse moving at the rate of a turtle. I think of the term as meaning it’s a long stride where the legs are moving smoothly, but there is still plenty of impulsion, as opposed to a horse who is moving his legs quickly and looks rushed. “Slow canter” in this case does not mean that the horse is not covering ground at a good pace.
And I’ve said this before: if you are basing your opinion on a live feed, you are not seeing at all what the trips look like in real life. But it’s the nature of this board to be negative and crabby about everything hunters, so I’m expecting to see a lot of excuses for why I’m totally wrong.
[QUOTE=busylady;8273106]
I get your point, I tried making a similar one a few pages back…can you imagine if Scott had signed as trainer???[/QUOTE]
Thank you!
well I am not a fan of GGT…but that is a whole other thread…
Oh please before all the crabbng starts about Tracy’s horse appearing “slow”. It is large and leggy and big strided and slow-legged.
For all the non-hunter folks that come on here to crab about hunters. Hunters 101: “slow legged” horses appear slow because they are efficient. Hunters 101: You match your pace to the related distances. The winning round has an even pace. The big strided horse must go more slowly than the smaller-strided horse, or else we would have to change the lines for every horse.
I have loved the judging of the Pre-Green and International Derby this week. Those horses that can clip around are actually at an advantage these days. The judges are rewarding them.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8273087]
Aaaannnd, another one who completely failed to comprehend my point.[/QUOTE]
No, I get it. I forgot to use sarcasm font.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
