I just don’t see it … I highly doubt that safety is the first thought in the majority of trainers’ minds when they reach for that syringe. I’m just not buying it.
That the horse will be fresh leading to mistakes in their round with a kid/amateur that a skilled rider could have easily avoided? Certainly. But I just can’t buy that the majority of drugging is done in the interest of safety.
When drug rules first came into being, a large % of the most famous/winningest horses retired. This was in the early 70’s and drugs were so prevalent than you would be hard pressed to imagine that happening now.
I could (but won’t) name at least 5 horses who are on peoples’ lists of “icons of the hunter ring from back in the day” who were entirely reliant on drugs to win.
Allowing any kind of legal medication would take us right back to the show hunters from 50 years ago.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8277413]
I just don’t see it … I highly doubt that safety is the first thought in the majority of trainers’ minds when they reach for that syringe. I’m just not buying it.
That the horse will be fresh leading to mistakes in their round with a kid/amateur that a skilled rider could have easily avoided? Certainly. But I just can’t buy that the majority of drugging is done in the interest of safety.[/QUOTE]
Have to somewhat disagree. Been around decades, 2 disciplines and Breed shows, friends in the other disciplines. Maybe the top 10% might go to things to give a performance edge including more subtle, longer acting calmatives.
Far more common to see short term tranqs like Ace used to substitute for ability and experience in either horse or rider (or both) to handle garden value stresses instead of more training/practice and exposure and to save trainers from having to lose income leaving something home or just say no to the green + green combination in stressful situations.
We now have so very many speed bump classes even at A shows where safety is paramount, the jumps barely poles and once or twice a week riders out there who have never ridden out of a ring? The temptation is strong in the face of pressure to get the client a ribbon or at least around in one piece. No more are shows where you go to show what you have learned, you go to get ribbons. It’s a societal thing.
Far, far worse, IMO, is drugging to mask pain and keep unsound horses going causing further damage to deteriorating joints or whatever. There’s quite a bit of that out there.
Other practices that people might find hard to believe include shaving a horse’s withers so he would measure into the smaller division of ponies or into the small juniors.
This practice became less prevalent when WB’s started replacing TB’s (who are known for their high withers). A WB might measure 15.3, while a TB whose back was the same height might measure more than an inch higher at the withers.
A lot of things happen in the show ring that are not discussed outside the confines of a horse show. The desire to take every advantage in order to win is part of every sport. Horse sports only being one of them.
(Lance Armstrong in cycling, baseball/football players on steroids – you name it, atheletes have done it.)
[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8277568]
Other practices that people might find hard to believe include shaving a horse’s withers so he would measure into the smaller division of ponies or into the small juniors.[/QUOTE]
If you’re referring to shaving hair/mane/fur off of the withers, we did that regularly when I was a junior. And I have to admit, I don’t see any issue with that.
If you’re talking about shaving something else (bone? Dunno what else you could shave) then I’ve been happily naive to that practice.
[QUOTE=findeight;8277289]
Some of the not so good jobs or those that caused a little bit of white hair (not a “skunk stripe”, a little bit) to grow around a scar somewhere around the top of the tail? Get accredited to getting their tail caught in a trailer or stall door-yeah, sure, whatever you say:cool:[/QUOTE]
FWIW: I own a horse with a big swath of white in his tail…and it’s not from a bad blocking. The braider wrapped it too tight, and his tail fell out from mid tail bone down. I would certainly hate to think that the assumption is that his tail was blocked. He doesn’t flag it and it’s not overly busy so there would be no point.
I also grew up with a horse that had his tail out the back of a trailer and a dog attached the tail, chewing the tail bone. The tail fell out pretty far down and never grew back. He was the first horse I ever saw with a fake tail in. (this was the 80s, when it wasn’t de riguer.)
I have seen the shaving of withers on measurement ponies. I can see why it is done because some have this giant puff of wither hair and when bunched up beneath a measuring stick can certainly make a pony measure over if it is indeed top of the line. It has zero affect on the way of going or performance but if the pony was every pulled out for a re-measure at a show; you could be screwed
To add to my post above; I have heard of folks taking “shaving of the withers” to an entirely bigger level by shaving bone. Horrid. Realistically; the drug issue is only the very tip of the iceberg as to what goes on in the barn at home; and this is just speaking for hunters. If there were more open discussion on what goes on; it might help bring light to the situation. I am still puzzled as to how people sleep at night.
Bug, I was not referring to huge hunks missing or big swatches of white but to Small areas of white up around the base, particularly on the sides. Or tails that cannot be lifted or used to swat flies but that look pretty normal going around the ring without needing a fake tail.
Actual accidents happen. Just seem to be quite a few more show horses getting into this type accident despite closer supervision.
snaffle, for years that old story is going to come up about taking bone off the withers of a pony for a measurement. I have been involved with riding, showing, owning, producing and judging ponies at the highest levels since the 1960’s. That story has always been quoted, but I have never heard facts or names of any pony that had it done.
Firstly, who would perform that surgery? No vet that I have ever known. Nobody is that hungry to perform a surgery that has no benefit to the animal and may cause complications. Unless someone did it in their own barn aisle like a back alley abortion, I do not believe that this has ever been an issue at the pony measurement stand.
Secondly, the scars from such surgery would be visible. Not only would they be visible but as a vet once pointed out to me , the scar tissue would likely create volume which may take away a good portion of the decrease in height that one may get from such a procedure.
I have seen several ponies that have had wither injuries that would probably be horses without those injuries. In fact I owned one at one time. It had flipped over in the cross ties at some point early in its life and completely flattened out the withers. Until someone shows me a pony with the scars that indicate that a surgery was performed I strongly feel that this is an old tale that has gotten embellished and grown with each telling over the years. And believe me, I have seen plenty and am not the least bit naive to the things the lengths that people will go to try to win.
There is, or at least was, a vet in these parts who was willing to do “surgery” to cut out tongues of horses who would stick their tongues out while being ridden. He apparently would also do the permanent tail blocks, as opposed to the temporary alcohol blocks. I suspect he would also be willing to shave withers if asked. Not saying he, or anyone else, did; however, there are vets out there who might be willing.
Even though chunky monkey and I rarely agree on anything, I think she’s spot on on the “wither-shaving” being somewhat of an urban myth, if you will.
(one component of ULs being that it’s always something that a friend-of-a-friend heard or did or said, another being that something that might have happened once is being touted as a common occurrence).
The withers are the dorsal spinous processes of roughly the 2nd to the 8th
thoracic vertebrae. Taking a bit off the top of the might sound simple enough, but, there are a number of soft tissue structures to take into account, including the continuation of the nuchal ligament and its transformation into the supraspinous ligament, the dorsoscapular ligaments, several muscular attachments, as well as the supraspinous bursa.
The risk of causing permanent scarring, potential for damage/infection, and resultant chronic pain issues are not entirely insignificant, and would, for the most part, make this likely not worth the risk, especially compared with more benign ways of minimizing height, as in clipping all the hair, pulling the shoes and trimming as short as possible, and the old grain sacks on the back, tired pony tricks.
[QUOTE=findeight;8277555]
Far, far worse, IMO, is drugging to mask pain and keep unsound horses going causing further damage to deteriorating joints or whatever. There’s quite a bit of that out there.[/QUOTE]
Larry Bramlage (Big time racehorse vet) recently remarked something to the effect that if more people understood that lameness was a symptom, not the problem, life would be better for millions of horses.Understanding that lameness is a symptom of something bad going on would cut down on use of bute by 99% in show and race horses alike. If the people in charge actually gave a damn.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8278035]
Understanding that lameness is a symptom of something bad going on would cut down on use of bute by 99% in show and race horses alike.[/QUOTE]
I truly wish I could believe that.
Older Chronicle Artile Hits the Nail on the Head
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/carolina-gold-newest-face-old-problem
[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8277660]
To add to my post above; I have heard of folks taking “shaving of the withers” to an entirely bigger level by shaving bone. Horrid. Realistically; the drug issue is only the very tip of the iceberg as to what goes on in the barn at home; and this is just speaking for hunters. If there were more open discussion on what goes on; it might help bring light to the situation. I am still puzzled as to how people sleep at night.[/QUOTE]Yes, this is what I meant when I brought it up. An actual surgical procedure where they shave the bone to bring down the height of the withers.
I know this doesn’t really add to the discussion, but I just had to comment that this really makes me sick. Tail injections, wither shaving, not to mention the drugs. I’ve been riding all of my life but not upper level. This has opened my eyes (and makes me want to close them again). The poor horses.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;8277941]
Firstly, who would perform that surgery? No vet that I have ever known. Nobody is that hungry to perform a surgery that has no benefit to the animal and may cause complications. [/QUOTE]
Maybe not that hungry just to perform a surgery, but certainly you can find vets who will do unnecessary surgery so owners can win ribbons.
Just look up cosmetic surgery on Arabian horses – David Boggs is the poster child owner for that I think. And he got set down [edit: by the AHA. not USEF, for clarity] for having multiple horses done. SOMEONE out there was willing to perform several surgeries in the name of ribbons.
No comment on whether or not the wither shaving surgery actually happens with any regularity, but don’t kid yourself that someone who REALLY wanted it done would be unable to find a vet to do it. They would/could.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8278010]
Even though chunky monkey and I rarely agree on anything, I think she’s spot on on the “wither-shaving” being somewhat of an urban myth, if you will.
Well, sorry Ghazz that we don’t agree on things and I apologize in advance that I really don’t recall having any extensive discourse with you. Must have been some time ago, as i don’t post here much anymore with anything particularly meaningful. People on these boards get way too uppity LOL 
[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8278433]
Maybe not that hungry just to perform a surgery, but certainly you can find vets who will do unnecessary surgery so owners can win ribbons.
Just look up cosmetic surgery on Arabian horses – David Boggs is the poster child owner for that I think. And he got set down [edit: by the AHA. not USEF, for clarity] for having multiple horses done. SOMEONE out there was willing to perform several surgeries in the name of ribbons.
No comment on whether or not the wither shaving surgery actually happens with any regularity, but don’t kid yourself that someone who REALLY wanted it done would be unable to find a vet to do it. They would/could.[/QUOTE]
I suspect that someone can find anyone to do almost anything if one puts one’s mind to it. But one would hope that in this business where few can keep secrets and revenge is frequently sought that the culprit would be publicly revealed and subsequently publicly outed and receive some sort of detention, etc which would have a large impact on their practice. I would hope that people that spent many years and lots of money to become a veterinary practitioner would think the better of making a little cash for a dubious procedure before risking their license, reputation and whole practice. Again, i suspect there is some wacko out there that would do anything, but that is not the norm.
I am curious exactly what cosmetic surgery you are referring to at AHA shows. I am aware of things like facial color alteration, etc, but unaware of what may be referred to as major surgery. Please inform. Thanks
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
