Say it isn't so....Inclusive on USEF Drug List

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8278453]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8278010]Even though chunky monkey and I rarely agree on anything, I think she’s spot on on the “wither-shaving” being somewhat of an urban myth, if you will.

Well, sorry Ghazz that we don’t agree on things and I apologize in advance that I really don’t recall having any extensive discourse with you. Must have been some time ago, as i don’t post here much anymore with anything particularly meaningful. People on these boards get way too uppity LOL [/QUOTE]

It was merely an observation

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8278473]
I suspect that someone can find anyone to do almost anything if one puts one’s mind to it. But one would hope that in this business where few can keep secrets and revenge is frequently sought that the culprit would be publicly revealed and subsequently publicly outed and receive some sort of detention, etc which would have a large impact on their practice. I would hope that people that spent many years and lots of money to become a veterinary practitioner would think the better of making a little cash for a dubious procedure before risking their license, reputation and whole practice. Again, i suspect there is some wacko out there that would do anything, but that is not the norm.
I am curious exactly what cosmetic surgery you are referring to at AHA shows. I am aware of things like facial color alteration, etc, but unaware of what may be referred to as major surgery. Please inform. Thanks[/QUOTE]

Throatlatch surgery on a number of young halter horses and a Nat’l Champion stallion. ostensibly modified Forsell’s proedure for cribbing, because yannow, these youngsters were in danger of dying from colic otherwise.

[Dinah-do]

Often a vet who sign on as chief vet for a big show barn can find themselves actually selling their souls to the devil. It is a foul combination of money , prestige and and doing what the trainer wants. Once started it is hard to stop.

[chunky_munky]

Dinah, There may be a handful of these guys, but I have seen many a vet say NO to their clients requests that they felt were not therapeutic, and these have been some pretty well known people servicing some very big show barns on the east coast. I certainly can’t speak reliably for the west coast or Canada. I knew a few “Dr. Feelgood’s” on the west coast but I do not think any of them are practicing anymore.

[IPEsq]

There are enough MDs who have worked with athletes for the purpose of helping them cheat. Wouldn’t put it past some vet somewhere to be going too far.

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8278473]
But one would hope that in this business where few can keep secrets and revenge is frequently sought that the culprit would be publicly revealed and subsequently publicly outed and receive some sort of detention, etc which would have a large impact on their practice. I would hope that people that spent many years and lots of money to become a veterinary practitioner would think the better of making a little cash for a dubious procedure before risking their license, reputation and whole practice. Again, i suspect there is some wacko out there that would do anything, but that is not the norm.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the vast, vast majority of vets are ethical (and over worked, under paid, and under appreciated). But I can think of two relatively local situations in the last year where vets have done stupid, stupid things that should have cost them their licenses and… so far… not.

I’m glad your exposure to morally/ethically questionable vets is apparently better than mine. They aren’t the norm, but I’m not so inclined to think they are as impossible to find as you think they are.

[MyssMyst]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8278473]
I suspect that someone can find anyone to do almost anything if one puts one’s mind to it. But one would hope that in this business where few can keep secrets and revenge is frequently sought that the culprit would be publicly revealed and subsequently publicly outed and receive some sort of detention, etc which would have a large impact on their practice. I would hope that people that spent many years and lots of money to become a veterinary practitioner would think the better of making a little cash for a dubious procedure before risking their license, reputation and whole practice. Again, i suspect there is some wacko out there that would do anything, but that is not the norm.
I am curious exactly what cosmetic surgery you are referring to at AHA shows. I am aware of things like facial color alteration, etc, but unaware of what may be referred to as major surgery. Please inform. Thanks[/QUOTE]

Throatlatch surgery so they’d be more refined, lipo on the hind end to contour it… Tattooing around the eyes to make sure it was all black… The throatlatch surgery was said to be for the purpose of correcting cribbing, however several other yearlings were “corrected” at the same time.

And nope, this isn’t an urban myth. The lawsuits resulting from that whole fiasco darn near bankrupted AHA.

[chunky_munky]

I have only implied that I feel the urban myth refers to the shaving of bone off of a pony’s withers. I have made no comment regarding the validity of the Arabian surgery. I do not doubt that report, though I have not looked up any documentation. It is my guess that these physical alterations are for those Arabians competing in the “Main Ring” and not those competing in the Sport Horse part of those shows. The Sport Horses appear mostly very natural and it is becoming a very popular and growing part of the Arabian horse world. I would hate to see that people on these boards think that this type of lunacy is part of all Arabian showing.

[Lord_Helpus]

My first (and only) experience with wither shaving was 10 years ago in Ocala. I had a nice pregreenie for sale. One day my trainer told me that a trainer (and quite a BNT) was interested in him, but he wanted a vet to look at him to see how much the withers could be shaved down, because the buyers were looking for a small junior. (My horse measured 16.1 1/2 with very high withers; he was a TB and his show name was Vintage, because he was one of the last ‘vintage’ TB’s.)

As I gasped in horror, my trainer added that he had told the BNT that I would never allow that, so we would not consider an offer from them.

Thank God my trainer knew me well enough to immediately say ‘no’. If he hadn’t, I might well have tracked the man down and shaved down certain parts of his anatomy.

[chunky_munky]

I still want to hear first hand about anyone that knows of, has had or owned a horse or pony that had or they think shows evidence of having a surgical procedure on its withers. Names. There are too many other nice horses in the world to buy rather than go to such an effort with a procedure which may not even be successful, not to mention at best distasteful. Scar tissue and possible bone remodeling as often happens with any bone trauma makes this procedure a bad bet for success. Then there is the possibility of creating hypersensitivity in the wither area which could upset a whole new kettle of fish. The odds are just too poor for success to purchase an expensive horse (as described in the above story) and think this procedure will make an animal a winner in a different division.
I have heard people make casual comments in jest regarding the type of story told above as in “well we could shave his withers down” etc, but never have I heard anyone seriously see this as an option. I am not going to argue that this conversation never took place, but my gut is that something said in a humorous manner was taken far too seriously. I have personally had things I say jokingly taken as gospel and totally misinterpreted, and it is even more rampant today with things said on the internet.

[Ghazzu]

It’s as common as cow-tipping, I think.

[jn1193]

[QUOTE=mroades;8268431]
Tommy is fighting his accusation. He maintains that it was in a supplement that he gave that he was told it did not contain anything it shouldn’t and then later found out it did have GABA. I tend to believe him.[/QUOTE]

I believe that Tommy & Kathy did call the company and ask for there was anything illegal in the supplement too, however, Here’s the deal with this: Kathy & Tommy said that they found this supplement in their tack room. It claimed to calm horses. They - in their own words - decided to “try it and see if it worked.” By admitting this, they admitted intent. Intent to see if their horse’s mood could be altered by using this supplement. That’s the bottom line here (to me anyway).

Instead of saying “we don’t do that here”, i.e. chemically alter a horse’s mood whether by legal means or no, they chose to “see if it worked.” Ergo, whether they called the company to see if the supplement was legal, or didn’t test doesn’t matter here. Neither does how USEF handled the testing. They admitted INTENT.

The USEF process is screwed up - NO question. It needs reform - NO question. Sad situation all around

[jn1193]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8268670]
How will this impact Tori’s ability to show Inclusive?

Is he suspended as well, by association? I wasn’t certain if that was the correct interpretation of the following language or not:

"Any horse or horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his or hers, or shown in his or her name or for his or
her reputation, (whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter), shall also be suspended,
pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1c. "[/QUOTE]

Neither Inclusive or Tori are suspended. Nor is his owner, Betsee Parker. Any horses owned or leased by her mother or Steven ARE suspended for the duration of their suspension.

[snaffle1987]

Inclusive should be suspended but he is not.

I agree with the above statement on Tommy S and that they admitted to the intent of altering their horse’s mood whether by legal means or illegal means. You buy a supplement to give to your horse to alter his performance/mood for the benefit of winning and you are a CHEATER. The can claim all day long that they were assured that it was safe to use but they admitted to the intent of seeing if the product had any beneficial results on their horses.

[APirateLooksAtForty]

My best friend had a pony that had the wither-shaving surgery. This was the late 90s. I know exactly which veterinary hospital and I know exactly which vet. Don’t care to elaborate but it has been done.

[chunky_munky]

That is too bad, because if that occurred, that type of work deserves public shaming of the person that ordered it and the vet and clinic that did it. Once the children’s only division became so popular (which it certainly was by the late 90’s) the need for even the sickest mind to think such a procedure was necessary truly disappeared. I don’t think I would be proud to call that person my “best friend”.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;8282783]
That is too bad, because if that occurred, that type of work deserves public shaming of the person that ordered it and the vet and clinic that did it. Once the children’s only division became so popular (which it certainly was by the late 90’s) the need for even the sickest mind to think such a procedure was necessary truly disappeared. I don’t think I would be proud to call that person my “best friend”.[/QUOTE]

APirate didn’t say her best friend had the wither shaving done. She just said her friend owned the pony. It could have occurred prior to her friend’s ownership.

[APirateLooksAtForty]

My friend was 13 and had no idea until after the fact, chunky. Sadly, her parents had ordered it, and she found out after going through some old records and she was devastated. But feel free to jump to any more conclusions as you see fit. :no:

[bauhaus]

It’s been repeatedly mentioned that the way to stop drugging is to take away the incentive to cheat. Obviously, the incentive to cheat is winning. So, make it harder for every horse in a trainer’s barn to win. Every horse showing under the barn name of a trainer who has been set down has an automatic deduction of points on every round, for a certain amount of time. You could do a scale based on how many times the trainer has had a horse test positive:

1 strike, 5 points off - x # of months
2 strikes, 10 points off - x # of months
3 strikes, 20 points off - x # of months
4 strikes, 50 points off - permanently

After 3 strikes it wouldn’t prevent a trainer from showing, but it would prevent him/her from winning, ever. I think to hit where it hurts you need to hit right on the prestige, name recognition, reputation for putting out winning horses and riders.

[chunky_munky]

[QUOTE=APirateLooksAtForty;8282887]
My friend was 13 and had no idea until after the fact, chunky. Sadly, her parents had ordered it, and she found out after going through some old records and she was devastated. But feel free to jump to any more conclusions as you see fit. :no:[/QUOTE]

Your wording wasn’t exactly clear. Still curious about the people that did such a procedure that in no way benefitted the animal. How did nobody know this was occurring? Was the pony all of a sudden whisked away and hidden for the surgery and the amount of time that it had to heal? Were there no scars that anybody questioned? Seems like a lot of people in cahoots (parents, vets, most likely trainer) for this never to have been exposed. I am still at least somewhat skeptical until somebody can name a pony that had this done.

Don’t mean to deny your story, but it is still just hearsay to me without actual named pony. A little like Faux News. Again not saying that you are not telling the truth of what you heard, but unless you or someone else saw the withers and was privy to the incident it still falls into urban legend for me.