I’d still like to know what happens to Inclusive. Can he still show with Tori under a different trainer? Or is the horse also suspended along with all the others in the care of those named in that document?
[QUOTE=lachelle;8268228]
More importantly… I need to hang out with these Arab people… [/QUOTE]
I know, I think tensions were high and Miss Manners was notably missing from that show!
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8269758]
I’d still like to know what happens to Inclusive. Can he still show with Tori under a different trainer? Or is the horse also suspended along with all the others in the care of those named in that document?[/QUOTE]
I thought I saw a list of horses entered in the derby finals a few weeks ago and was surprised that Inclusive wasn’t on it. As soon as I read this news I assumed this was a likely reason for that. But the announcement doesn’t list the consequences for the horse involved so I’m unsure about this as well.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;8269388]
Was the “rich owners and riders and the Hermes bag” comment really necessary? Jealous much?
You know, if I was judging, swishing a tail constantly and pinning ears would mean points deductions for me, too. It means the horse is either sore, or VERY unhappy with its job. A “little” buck or “kick” should be penalized, and heavily.
Every time the subject of hunters “these days” come up, everyone wrings their collective hands and says the whole sport is going down the drain. It’s not…a few bad apples does not speak for the entire sport of hunters.
I will repeat what I’ve said a dozen times…yes, good breeding, good conformation and good training will result in a horse that can go around in proper form and do it quietly. It’s not rocket science. It’s called a total package. Unfortunately, few horses fit into this category and some trainers think the horse needs a “little help” to make up for its shortcomings.
All that said, I’m seriously wondering about the intelligence of some of the top trainers these days. And, 7 months and a “large” fine? How about banning them for a year or two or three? That will really hit them in the pocket book…NO FLORIDA FOR YOU!!![/QUOTE]
I am not jealous. I have plenty of money to buy a top A/O hunter and win back East. I just have no desire…I really don’t get hunters as a division. Horses are athletes, living and breathing creatures…not fashion accessories. That is what angers me is when living creatures are treated as inanimate objects.
Then can you please name top trainers that don’t drug? Please let me know because I struggle with what will my children show in when they are young. Two of my best friends that I grew up riding with are both “top hunter trainers” (I won’t name their names) with multiple championships and a big win last week at Menlo and I know “off the record” the horses in their barns are “medicated.” I also rode in a barn that was predominately hunters and saw the horses drugged at horse shows with my own eyes. The assistant at that barn, used to work for the most famous “Big Eq” trainer back East, and she also admitted to me over drinks that they “drug the shit” out of their horses. I ended up leaving because I was so disgusted with how the horses were treated. In the owner’s defense, I do think that most of them have absolutely no idea just how much their horses are drugged. Whether BP knew her horses were drugged or not…I have no idea or comment. It all boils down to an issue of horse welfare. I mean if you were a horse, would you want to be a hunter on the circuit?
And if horse are not supposed to swish their tails, pin their ears, never playful then please explain to me why 75% of the horses on the Global Champions Tour, WEG, World Cup, and Olympic Games do. I mean come on have you watched Mclain Ward and Rothschild go???
I am breed and buy young upper level potential show jumpers, but I have friends that breed hunters and I have seen them at weanlings, age one, two, three and four. No horse in it’s natural state goes around like a hunter even when they are specifically bred for that division…they are trained to do so. You are correct that some are more predisposed to it because of temperament, movement and type. But it is an unnatural way of going for a horse. So what is the whole point of “A” circuit hunters? What is the goal now that the divisions have been so watered down? After 20 years of competing in the jumpers and observing the hunter, I cannot tell you the point of hunters. Frankly I could care less about the hunter division, if I didn’t feel that it so negatively impacted horse welfare.
Bottom line, USEF has been turning a blind eye to the issue of mood altering medications for years. They should be tougher. Big time trainers with tons of resources have no excuse for a horse that tests positive. If we can’t appropriately police our own sport, do we need an outside body to come in and to it?
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8269758]
I’d still like to know what happens to Inclusive. Can he still show with Tori under a different trainer? Or is the horse also suspended along with all the others in the care of those named in that document?[/QUOTE]
I’m curious too. If the penalty is simply Brigid’s suspension and fine, it seems to be a penalty without much consequence. Though I’m sure she will be sad to miss Tori’s last medal finals. I have to say, this makes Tori’s record a bit less impressive as I can’t help but wonder how often her horses were medicated.
The horse and the owner are not suspended.
[QUOTE=Flash44;8268880]
I couldn’t read the entire letter. A top show barn just shuffles around a supplement tub for a couple years and then goes, Gee whiz, let’s try it on a couple horses that are actively showing, but we won’t give it on days they are showing?[/QUOTE]
This ^^^ the fact they did not use it on show days makes it hard for me to believe they didn’t think something might be fishy…
[QUOTE=caballogurl;8269772]
I am not jealous. I have plenty of money to buy a top A/O hunter and win back East. I just have no desire…I really don’t get hunters as a division. Horses are athletes, living and breathing creatures…not fashion accessories. That is what angers me is when living creatures are treated as inanimate objects.
Then can you please name top trainers that don’t drug? Please let me know because I struggle with what will my children show in when they are young. Two of my best friends that I grew up riding with are both “top hunter trainers” (I won’t name their names) with multiple championships and a big win last week at Menlo and I know “off the record” the horses in their barns are “medicated.” I also rode in a barn that was predominately hunters and saw the horses drugged at horse shows with my own eyes. The assistant at that barn, used to work for the most famous “Big Eq” trainer back East, and she also admitted to me over drinks that they “drug the shit” out of their horses. I ended up leaving because I was so disgusted with how the horses were treated. In the owner’s defense, I do think that most of them have absolutely no idea just how much their horses are drugged. Whether BP knew her horses were drugged or not…I have no idea or comment. It all boils down to an issue of horse welfare. I mean if you were a horse, would you want to be a hunter on the circuit?
And if horse are not supposed to swish their tails, pin their ears, never playful then please explain to me why 75% of the horses on the Global Champions Tour, WEG, World Cup, and Olympic Games do. I mean come on have you watched Mclain Ward and Rothschild go???
I am breed and buy young upper level potential show jumpers, but I have friends that breed hunters and I have seen them at weanlings, age one, two, three and four. No horse in it’s natural state goes around like a hunter even when they are specifically bred for that division…they are trained to do so. You are correct that some are more predisposed to it because of temperament, movement and type. But it is an unnatural way of going for a horse. So what is the whole point of “A” circuit hunters? What is the goal now that the divisions have been so watered down? After 20 years of competing in the jumpers and observing the hunter, I cannot tell you the point of hunters. Frankly I could care less about the hunter division, if I didn’t feel that it so negatively impacted horse welfare.
Bottom line, USEF has been turning a blind eye to the issue of mood altering medications for years. They should be tougher. Big time trainers with tons of resources have no excuse for a horse that tests positive. If we can’t appropriately police our own sport, do we need an outside body to come in and to it?[/QUOTE]
Nicely put. When I showed hunters, my trainer took pride in the fact that our horses went in and won, based on horsemanship and not pharmaceuticals. Our competitors, even at the local level, would come to the in gate with a big “welt” on their neck or even a trickle of dried blood. It’s disgusting.
I bred my now 6yo and showed her on the line for her first three years - even going to Devon solo. She did great, why? Becuase we spent countless hours of prep getting ready and has never needed anything to get her to a show.
Now they go in like Vegus show girls, complete with big poofy fake tails and go around with the excitment of watching paint dry. I just don’t get it…
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8269758]
I’d still like to know what happens to Inclusive. Can he still show with Tori under a different trainer? Or is the horse also suspended along with all the others in the care of those named in that document?[/QUOTE]
I do not think he can show under Tori because she is a family member of one of the suspended trainers (see the post where I quote the reelvant part of GR704).
[QUOTE=RugBug;8269756]
can you point to where Mrs. Serio or the USEF mention a third horse? I didn’t see a 3rd horse mentioned (other than the previous infraction when a horse not in the Serios care, custody and control was tranq’d for clipping and then brought to the Serios to show) yet multiple people on this thread are indicating there is a third horse.
- Horse (Compass Rose) tested positive at WEF in March. Results were communicated 4 months after competition (July)
- Horse (Calvert) tested positive at Upperville in June. Results were communicated 2 months after competition. (Aug).
Serios contend had the first results been available sooner, the second never would’ve happened to which USEF apparently agreed.
I can only count two horses for the Serio issue. Perhaps people are being inclusive of Inclusive when they say 3 horses?[/QUOTE]
I take back my 3 horses comment. I thought from the letter there was a 3rd Serio horse not on the sanctions list, but it turns out I just couldn’t follow the timeline the way it was written.
Are their no penalties for Tori even though she was riding the horse?
[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8269738]
The vet that makes the Tranquility supplement posted this on his fb page in 2012.
DePaolo Equine Concepts & Horse Hair Analysis shared a link.
Feb 24, 2012 ·
As of February 22nd, GABA is considered a forbidden substance in USEF competitions. We don’t agree with this ruling, nor the fact it was put into place with no warning to those currently competing at shows. It is important to note that our product TRANQUILITY contains GABA, so it is no longer legal to show at USEF events on this supplement.[/QUOTE]
interesting.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8269668]
In dressage, they have the concept of submission built into their judging. Horses are often dinged on the submission element. I cannot see why the tail swishing, ears pinned, etc. that is dinged in hunters would not also be dinged in dressage under submission. But dressage has addressed its subjective judging in a very formal way. I’ve not heard that drugged dressage horses was considered a huge problem in that discipline.
Perhaps hunters would benefit from having a system that is as well thought through and formalized as dressage. You still would have the issue of judges and how different ones can see different things, but you would understand the elements of a score better.[/QUOTE]
This is true. However, what saves dressage (IMHO) is that expression, big movement, and brilliance are also prized (in the gaits and impulsion scores, and in each movement).
As far as drugs in dressage, I’m sure it happens - but its no where near as common. I see some horses show on Previcox that would probably be fine without - but that’s about it.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;8269786]
The horse and the owner are not suspended.[/QUOTE]
The OWNER is definitely NOT suspended.
But it says
Any horse or horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his or hers, or shown in his or her name or for his or her reputation, (whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter), shall also be suspended, pursuant to Chapter 7, GR703.1c.
GR703.1.c says
SUSPENSION for any period of the horse or horses, owned by him or her, or
shown in any name or for his, her, or their credit or reputation, whether such interest
was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter. The Board of
Directors or the Hearing Committee may at a later date remove the suspension of
said horse or horses if it is demonstrated to their satisfaction that a sale or transfer
thereof was made by such person, partnership, or corporation in such as to be a
bona fide transaction and not with the intention of relieving the suspended owner
of penalty. See GR139.
GR704.1 (quoted in my earlier post) makes it clear that being a family member of the suspended trainer showing the horse involved in the suspension constitutes being
shown in any name or for his, her, or their credit or reputation
So i think they are going to have to find another rider.
[QUOTE=huntersgonewild;8269738]
The vet that makes the Tranquility supplement posted this on his fb page in 2012.
DePaolo Equine Concepts & Horse Hair Analysis shared a link.
Feb 24, 2012 ·
As of February 22nd, GABA is considered a forbidden substance in USEF competitions. We don’t agree with this ruling, nor the fact it was put into place with no warning to those currently competing at shows. It is important to note that our product TRANQUILITY contains GABA, so it is no longer legal to show at USEF events on this supplement.[/QUOTE]
I have to think that if the USEF knew about this post (one assumes they did), that undid any argument of “we didn’t know and we did our due diligence.” I believe the Serios didn’t know, because they are not stupid people by any means. Unfortunately, a failure to do all the due diligence is rarely an acceptable excuse so that is unfortunate, but that is the rule.
I suppose another interpretation is a very literal approach to “no longer legal to show at USEF events on this supplement” by withdrawing use at shows, but if that was the case, that was not terribly SMRT and I would have to revoke my above assumption. Maybe I’m wrong, but I assume most trainers at that level (and well below) understand stuff doesn’t clear the blood/urine in 24 hours or less, which is all you potentially get for taking them off x strictly at a show.
But I have to say, even though Perfect Products has other things than Perfect Prep, USEF (or maybe USEF in conjunction with USHJA) seems to be more than a little schizophrenic on this topic. I get the feeling sometimes that D&M isn’t a 100% aligned with other interests.
This is so disgusting! I think the parents of all the so “awesome” little kiddie riders should sue their trainers for drugging the animals the little princesses ride; ohhh so cute pigtails and ribbons - guess what mom or dad!
Your little preciousness rides a DRUGGED pony!
You are the mom and dad well off to afford your child a horse to ride and show, and thinking good and paying big bucks for your little princess as she is supposedly getting her self esteem high kicking a pony around.
Have you ever imagined your kiddo is riding and kicking a DRUGGED pony???
Please stop! Think! Question your trainer!
[QUOTE=MoonWitch;8269791]
Nicely put. When I showed hunters, my trainer took pride in the fact that our horses went in and won, based on horsemanship and not pharmaceuticals. Our competitors, even at the local level, would come to the in gate with a big “welt” on their neck or even a trickle of dried blood. It’s disgusting.
I bred my now 6yo and showed her on the line for her first three years - even going to Devon solo. She did great, why? Becuase we spent countless hours of prep getting ready and has never needed anything to get her to a show.
Now they go in like Vegus show girls, complete with big poofy fake tails and go around with the excitment of watching paint dry. I just don’t get it…[/QUOTE]
In theory, I would love to watch a true “hunter” division with tons of natural obstacles and challenging non-related distances. Unfortunately, the divisions have become so watered down it is like watching paint dry. Even the hunter “derbies” are not true derbies. I watched the $25k hunter class at the Oaks and not one horse landed on the proper lead after fence 3.
The problem is to properly train a horse it takes copious amounts of time. My young horses at three spend three months learning just ground work with a cowboy. No barn actively competing on the circuit has the time time to properly train a horse from a young age and in Europe they don’t either. Horses are rushed through training to get ready for sale and exported to the US. I only import unbroke 3 or 4 year olds so I can properly start them according to my program. My horses don’t go to an “A” circuit barn until they are five or six and ready for the young horse championships because I know they don’t have enough time to spend on the basics. I have a four year old that just got back from my cowboy that you could put a toddler on and go out for a trail ride. And it not her breeding because she is bred extremely hot…Clarimo and almost 60% blood with two sisters that did the 1.6m and her brother went to Olympics for eventing. So this mare wasn’t bred to be a kids horse. She can go around on a long rein with cows and flapping banners and she could care less. She has jumped over trash cans, a baby play pool, swims through a creek and all without batting an eyelash. Granted she has a good temperament, but mostly it is extensive training. I recently took her to a clinic during thunder and lightening and she unloaded into the trailer and went straight into the ring an hour later. It is all the extensive ground work and exposure that gives her a confident, calm, and collected approach to new situations.
Why you see so much drugging on the circuit is it a quick fix and people don’t want to get hurt. But the problem is most of the horses even competing at the upper levels have holes in their foundation and eventually it causes issues. This is not unique to the hunter ring it also happens in the jumpers. I have a friend who purchased a proven 1.6m horse in Europe that had been competing on the Global Champions Tour but he had been tossed around through many hands and was never properly “broke.” After they had him about a year he started stopping badly…like even at 1m fences. See for the horses whole career trainer’s had used quick fix solutions and medications, instead of addressing the root issues the horse had. The horse had to go spend a year with a cowboy and be horse, and now he is starting to show again albeit not 1.6m anymore.
Now Tori is clearly an exceptionally talented rider and I could only wish to be 1/100th of the rider she is. But again the culture of drugging is so deeply embedded in our sport especially in the hunter and equitation divisions that trainers have the “everybody does it” mentality. All the trainers focus on is using the medications that they can’t “yet” test for. For years Carolina Gold, GABA ect were un-testable. Look at how many used syringes are left in the barn aisle at the end of the show? Honestly it is frightening…
One thing I have never understood, is why can’t a judge or a steward ask for a horse to be tested if they are suspicious that it has been drugged. From speaking with an top “R” rated hunter judge recently, she said that she frequently pins in top placing horses that she suspects are drugged, but that her role is to judge the round. It is up to USEF designated testers to randomly select horses to be tested. Why can’t a judge or a steward ask for a horse to be tested? If I see a driver driving extremely erratically and I call the police, they have probable cause to give the driver a sobriety test. I understand people are afraid certain individuals would be targeted but who cares if your horse gets tested if you aren’t drugging.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the fact that anyone would think a product called Tranquility with the description:
The Ultimate Mental Health Supplement. Promotes a calm temperament, Supports a focused attitude, Helps to maintain a quiet disposition
is intended to sort out stomach issues. 
I find the rule quoted above regarding the suspended trainers family members rather confusing. It appears to me that the owner can just hire another trainer. In this case the trainer does not own the business, the or the horses and is just a hired hand. Not sure I am reading all this correctly, but as usual the rule book is rather nebulous.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8269758]
I’d still like to know what happens to Inclusive. Can he still show with Tori under a different trainer? Or is the horse also suspended along with all the others in the care of those named in that document?[/QUOTE]
Nothing happens to Inclusive. His owner was not suspended or fined with the exception of having to pay fees to the show and return prizes. He, and all her other horses and ponies, are fine to continue to show. Tori can continue to show him because neither she nor her mother own him, nor is she showing him for her mother’s benefit. Only horses that are owned by the suspended persons are not allowed to compete during the suspension.
