Sedation for OFA x-rays?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;6212740]
Usually the price for additional radiographs are less than the initial set (of 2, most often). It makes sense to get elbows and patellas radiographed at the same time.

If you’re really concerned about breeding, ask your vet about having PennHip films taken. Those have to be done under sedation, but the studies show that they offer a better predictive value to hip dysfunction.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t researched PennHip in years, but it seems that the standard in my breed is OFA. So even if I got the PennHip done, I would expect bitch owners to insist on the OFAs if they wanted to breed to my dog anyway. I will ask my breeder about it…can you search the PennHip database like you can search OFA? Just curious if some of the standing studs have both OFA or PennHip or just OFA like I suspect.

I have no plans to breed my dog at this time since he’s only 2, but I suspect we will have our share of inquiries for him. I’ll be working with my breeder to make any breeding decisions…honestly I don’t know enough about it to know if there is a good match, and while I don’t own the bitch and have to worry about the ultimate placement of the puppies…I plan to be quite selective.

In the meantime, though, we’ll get the xrays done because if there is a problem anywhere he won’t be bred anyway.

[spinandslide]

I think sedation is a good idea…espc after seeing the different angles and positions my BC was put into to have him x-rayed.

sedation scares me, but I knew they may not be able to get the proper films if he wasnt…I wanted the BEST films taken so I knew exactly what was going on.

[wendy]

you should also consider the radiation exposure from the x-rays- if he’s not sedated, there’s a good chance they’ll have to take more shots to get a usable one, increasing the radiation exposure.

[threedogpack]

sedation does not scare me. We have come a long way from the gas 'em and hope for the best type stuff. Most vets are well aware of those breeds with a sensitivity to sedation and I know my vet monitors the sedated patient VERY carefully.

[SquishTheBunny]

Im a radiology tech. I always use sedation for hips as i never stay in the room (there is mo safe dose of radiation!) I like ten micrograms of domitor with 0.2mg per kg of torb. Shepherds get leas domitor. We do ofa and pennhip and police dog prepurchase exams with these drugs usually.

[SquishTheBunny]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;6212824]
Good point! Proper sedation reduces the number of radiographs taken, which reduces the exposure of radiation to the pet and the techs. And in many cases, the technicians can use sandbags and foam wedges to position a sedated dog (or cat) so that they don’t have to hold the pet at all. So much safer for everyone…[/QUOTE]

Its so amazing to hear this from someone else!! I take on average 50 radiographs per day…plus radiation from the fluoroscope and ct. I NEVER hold an animal for rads anymore. I use sandbags and positioning devices. For ortho rads i use sedation most of the time. Animals are far more comfortable and the rads are far better quality. I can do an entire pre purchase exam ( hips spine lat and vd elbows stifles hocks shoulders etc) on fifteen minutes alone. Our radiologist last year made a rule that no staff member at the hospital (which employes about 70 people) shall be in the room during radiographs. Its wonderful. I dont want my job to give me cancer or birth defects to my unborn child. Its great to hear other practices are using sandbags etc too.

[S1969]

I wonder why there is a fear to use mild sedation for xrays, then? I personally had no issue with it, but as I mentioned my breeder has some concern and was given the name/contact information of the vet by another owner who did not want her dogs’ xrays to be done with sedation, and had her other dogs done at this same clinic w/o sedation.

So there seems to be a group of breeder/owners out there that have either had bad experiences or worry that something will happen to their dogs while under sedation. Either that, or just general “ignorance” of current medications and processes (and I don’t mean that in a bad way, but some of these people have been in dogs for 30 years…maybe sedation was more worrisome 2+ decades ago.)

I had never really though about the exposure to the techs if they do rads without sedation…that’s certainly a good reason for a clinic to insist on sedation.

Interesting for sure. Well, I am convinced that it is best for me to have them done locally under sedation - easier on everyone and should get good quality films as well. Perhaps we’ll do the whole deal at the same time - elbows, hips & patellas.

Thanks for all the input! It is very much appreciated.

[Horsegal984]

A lot of breeders use ‘fear of sedation’ as an excuse to do them without, because of a belief that being awake the muscle tone will make the hips appear better than they are. We have had dogs ‘fail’ a PennHip with awful scores, and then the breeder goes searching for a vet to do OFA’s awake thinking the hips will get good ratings. They still failed.

Not saying this is the case with your breeder, but it is one of the main reasons we have heard from breeders who want OFAs without sedation.

Ask your vet to take the hip shot first, if they look good, go ahead and shoot elbows and patellas. If the vet sees something that is going to cause problems, or thinks the hips won’t pass, then wait on the patellas and elbows.

Squish- How do you do PennHip without anybody in the room? I was under the impression that the signing veterinarian had to be the one doing a lot of the physical positioning. And I honestly cannot imagine being able to get enough downward force with sandbags to get a good distraction/compression view. Would love to be able to do them without tying up two techs and a vet for an hour

[CarolinaGirl]

Sedation helps quite a bit and things can be done much faster and generally you get better rads. That said you CAN do it without sedation and I do believe that on the form you turn in with the radiogrpahs you must state whether sedation was used. If/when I get my labrador’s hips and elbows done I will have him sedated.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=S1969;6214683]

Interesting for sure. Well, I am convinced that it is best for me to have them done locally under sedation - easier on everyone and should get good quality films as well. Perhaps we’ll do the whole deal at the same time - elbows, hips & patellas.

Thanks for all the input! It is very much appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Provided your veterinarian thinks the hips look good, I’d encourage you to do the additional views at the same time. Your cost in submitting them to OFA goes down a fair bit if you submit hips and elbows together rather than separately. I don’t think you radiograph for OFA patellas, I think that’s just an evaluation done awake by your vet.

[DoubleClick]

If you are up to the trip to Wisconsin, Dr. Link, who is nearing retirement age, is a wizard at taking hip films without sedation. One picture, too. He is seriously a wizard. People drive from all over to bring dogs to him. He’s done all of our dogs and has been almost 100% in correctly predicting how OFA will grade them. It makes it a very short and easy visit for everyone involved. But, if the vet and staff aren’t used to restraining unsedated dogs for hip x-rays, the sedation is probably the best way to go.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=DoubleClick;6215908]
If you are up to the trip to Wisconsin, Dr. Link, who is nearing retirement age, is a wizard at taking hip films without sedation. One picture, too. He is seriously a wizard. People drive from all over to bring dogs to him. He’s done all of our dogs and has been almost 100% in correctly predicting how OFA will grade them. It makes it a very short and easy visit for everyone involved. But, if the vet and staff aren’t used to restraining unsedated dogs for hip x-rays, the sedation is probably the best way to go.[/QUOTE]

:lol: Well, no, I’m not really up for a 10 hour drive just to do it without sedation, which I think is pretty safe. That was sort of why I started this thread - because my breeder knows a vet in PA who also is known for doing to rads w/o sedation, but even a 4 hour drive (which essentially makes for a 10 hour day) seems a bit crazy for a 10 minute procedure, especially knowing that there really is no guarantee that they can get a good xray without sedation. Sure would stink to go that far and then have to sedate him anyway.

Honestly, it might be possible for a wizard vet to xray my dog without sedation but I’m pretty hesitant to go very far to find out. My boy is one of those very exuberant types our breed is known for (Brittany). He gives his chiropractor a run for her money because he’s just not the type to stay still without complaint. Luckily he’s cute! :winkgrin:

[SquishTheBunny]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;6214872]
A lot of breeders use ‘fear of sedation’ as an excuse to do them without, because of a belief that being awake the muscle tone will make the hips appear better than they are. We have had dogs ‘fail’ a PennHip with awful scores, and then the breeder goes searching for a vet to do OFA’s awake thinking the hips will get good ratings. They still failed.

Not saying this is the case with your breeder, but it is one of the main reasons we have heard from breeders who want OFAs without sedation.

Ask your vet to take the hip shot first, if they look good, go ahead and shoot elbows and patellas. If the vet sees something that is going to cause problems, or thinks the hips won’t pass, then wait on the patellas and elbows.

Squish- How do you do PennHip without anybody in the room? I was under the impression that the signing veterinarian had to be the one doing a lot of the physical positioning. And I honestly cannot imagine being able to get enough downward force with sandbags to get a good distraction/compression view. Would love to be able to do them without tying up two techs and a vet for an hour[/QUOTE]

PennHip Rads are a little different. We do VD Extended with sandbags, tape accross the patellas and leg straps to eextend. Everyone is out of the room. For the compression, we actually use waterbottles.
For the distraction, the radiologist does this. We velcro the distractor down on the well sedated dog, and she will hold the hocks and distract. So, there is one person in the room for 1 shot. She wears fullwrap around lead (not just typical xray gowns). The other 2 shots require zero people in the room.

It took a lot of practice, but its been working out great so far.

[SquishTheBunny]

[QUOTE=DoubleClick;6215908]
If you are up to the trip to Wisconsin, Dr. Link, who is nearing retirement age, is a wizard at taking hip films without sedation. One picture, too. He is seriously a wizard. People drive from all over to bring dogs to him. He’s done all of our dogs and has been almost 100% in correctly predicting how OFA will grade them. It makes it a very short and easy visit for everyone involved. But, if the vet and staff aren’t used to restraining unsedated dogs for hip x-rays, the sedation is probably the best way to go.[/QUOTE]

Its not that people arent used to it - some vets/techs just dont feel like risking their health for it.
I can do any awake dog while holding them, but am I going to? No.

[SquishTheBunny]

If your dog is young and cardiovascularly healthy, I would ask the vets about a domitor sedation. Its reversible.

I have my hip guys in/out the door in about 45 minutes.

[EquusArtist]

I did sedation with my rottie for his OFA elbows and hip films. He’s “a lot of dog” (in a good way…not a bad way LOL) and I couldn’t imagine someone trying to keep him still long enough to get something even close to a good position. We were in, we were out, and I wouldn’t even blink about sedation for the puppy when it comes to be his time.

I’ll also add that I had gone to a vet who does a lot of OFA stuff and he’s specializes in orthopedic issues in dogs. A friend of mine looking for prelim x-rays on his rottie went to my regular vet because they had just gotten a digital x-ray machine and they don’t sedate for OFA. Apparently the positioning was horrendous and he didn’t even bother to send them in. I think he ended up trying to get his money back because the x-rays were so bad.