Selling a papered horse...... but.....

[Zipsmom]

I looked at a horse to buy where the owner had the papers but had not done the transfer to his name. Found a horse I liked better with legit papers. Did not like the fact that the guy hadn’t done the transfer and that if I had bought her, I would have to do the legwork to get the papers because he claimed since he was selling her cheap he didn’t want to spend the money. It made me feel like he wasn’t the true owner. Just felt shady.

On another note, my barn owner has had to claim a couple of nice registered appaloosas for back board when the owner fell on hard times. He did release the papers to her and she in turn signed them over to the new owners. Both had placed high in major shows and were well bred. Sold for <$1000. I wish I could have afforded to take the one mare on-but she went to a good home!

[Guilherme]

The papers, here, are less an issue than the current owners rights to the horse. Most of us think in terms of “possession is nine points of the law” and most of the time that’s correct. But there is that tenth time. This situation sounds like one of them.

It would be OK to sign a contract but not take possession until ownership status is verified. The danger isn’t that you’ll end up with a grade horse; the danger is that you’ll get visited by the Sheriff asking why you’ve got a stolen horse. While a contract for sale and/or bill of sale is not an iron-clad defense to a charge of theft it is evidence that you were a good faith purchaser for value. That counts a lot.

Frankly, given the number of good horses for sale in most places, I’d walk.

G.

[trubandloki]

I am in the group that says if the horse is worth what they are asking as a grade horse and you like it as a grade horse then move ahead. Do not ever expect to get the papers.

[QUOTE=Gerda;7856501]
I was given the registered name of the horse not the name of the owners and since I am not an Apha member I cant find out who the owner on record is from what I have found.[/QUOTE]
Just find someone who is a member and have them look it up. You can contact the registered owner and make sure this seller has a right to sell this horse.

[QUOTE=littleum;7856672]
Given that we are going into winter, and this mare is bred, and has no papers, I would be highly suspect that the seller is trying to rid themselves of a problem: a mare they CAN’T get papers on, and a foal that won’t be able to get papers. Seen that before too. Owner thought they could get papers, turns out they couldn’t (pick a reason), tries to unload mare before she foals. [/QUOTE]
I do not see where the OP says this horse is in foal.

[SuckerForHorses]

Wanna bet the horse is considered stolen?

For whatever reason…I’m putting my money on the person who currently has possession of the horse (the one trying to sell to the OP) purchased this horse but never paid the original owner for it, and is now trying to flip it and make some money herself.

Otherwise, why wouldn’t the real owner be the one discussing the sale with the OP?

I would not buy this horse.

[merrygoround]

No papers? No prepurchase! No prepurchase, no sale!

Unless, the purchase price reflects that it is a grade horse, but be aware that-if it is stolen, it can be reclaimed, and you will be left empty handed.

[merrygoround]

No papers? No Prepurchase! No prepuchase, no sale!

Unless the price reflects its unpapered, grade condition.
But be aware that if it is stolen, it can be claimed, leaving you empty handed.

[Simkie]

OP, do you live in a brand inspection state? If you do, the brand board may be useful.

If you’re still interested in this horse, I’d consider WHY the seller is keeping the owner info a secret. What on earth could possible necessitate that? Off the top of my head:

• Horse is stolen
• Seller doesn't have approval to sell horse but is doing it anyway. Once sale goes through, horse will be considered stolen.
• Owner is a total whack-a-doodle
• Owner is known for seriously shady practices that cause long term damage to horse
• Owner is someone incredibly famous

That’s really about all I can come up with. I’d say that last bullet point is unlikely. Do you want to get wrapped up in any of the other scenarios?

[enjoytheride]

If you need the papers for showing or breeding purposes, or you want to resell in thr future, or want to know the horse’s exact age and bloodlines i would pass. If the horse passes the vet and you dont care about those things then buy with a price that reflects the fact that it is a grade horse.

[littleum]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7856787]
I do not see where the OP says this horse is in foal.[/QUOTE]

You’re right, I read “HOW she is bred” to be “NOW she is bred”. Apologies.

Regardless, I wouldn’t touch this situation. They rarely end well, and more to the point, late transfers can cost quite a bit of money, especially if there is more than one owner (many registries will want you to do a transfer for EACH OWNER)

One person I know spend well over $1,800 between all the notarizations, registered mail, lawyer letters, registry fees etc. They had to go back THREE owners, one of the prior owners was dead and they had to deal with the estate, pay a transfer fee for every owner up to them, etc etc. It was a rather epic saga. The horse was worth it but it went on for almost two years. And this was a case where everyone was willing to do their part and absolutely nothing was shady beyond previous owners hadn’t cared about papers or bothered to do the transfers.

[Dewey]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;7856780]
The papers, here, are less an issue than the current owners rights to the horse. Most of us think in terms of “possession is nine points of the law” and most of the time that’s correct. But there is that tenth time. This situation sounds like one of them.

It would be OK to sign a contract but not take possession until ownership status is verified. The danger isn’t that you’ll end up with a grade horse; the danger is that you’ll get visited by the Sheriff asking why you’ve got a stolen horse. While a contract for sale and/or bill of sale is not an iron-clad defense to a charge of theft it is evidence that you were a good faith purchaser for value. That counts a lot.

Frankly, given the number of good horses for sale in most places, I’d walk.

G.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I thought while reading this thread. This may be more serous than a case of missing papers.

[Field_of_Dreams_Mini]

Run. Run far away from this one.

[vineyridge]

If you know the registry, why not ask them to contact their registered owner for you. Explain the situation and ask for help. Or as someone else has mentioned find a member of the APHA who can ask for you.

Also go to the USEF and see if the horse is recorded with them or the PHR. If it is, the USEF and PHR will have the last known owners name, and the USEF will have it on the website.

Perhaps the selling person is acting as agent for the seller and doesn’t have the papers in possession. This could well be a case where one party to a divorce is selling something that belongs to the other party to the divorce. That seems to happen quite often.

If the horse is great and the price is also great, there is a lot more digging that you can do before you conclude this whole thing is really as shady as it appears.

[taharah]

it seems that there is obviously deception going on, since the seller will not tell you who the owner is.

i read a very long spiel on fb today where someone sold a leased horse… to me, it sounds like the same thing is happening here.

if she does not have permission to sell the horse, you may not even get to keep it even though you purchased it. you may not get your money back, and you may even have to spend some time in a courtroom.

whether the horse is papered or not seems like a minor concern in this situation.

in a normal situation, the owner (seller) should get and provide the papers for a registered horse. if this is a emergency and the sale needs to happen /now/, then they need to be prepared to take substantially less money for the horse.

[ElisLove]

@taharah;7858574

if she does not have permission to sell the horse, you may not even get to keep it even though you purchased it. you may not get your money back, and you may even have to spend some time in a courtroom.

This happened to my family when we bought a horse trailer. We didn’t realize the guy who was selling it, had stolen it. Drove that trailer for at least a couple years, then suddenly we had a phone call from the police who I guess had seen us driving around with the trailer. He told us it had been stolen a few years ago, by a guy who stolen a lot of trailers. Since it had been several years the people it was stolen from had already bought another trailer so the trailer was gonna be put up for auction. We had the choice of matching the second highest bidder and re-buying the trailer, or walking away from it. I believe we re-bought it though it’s been quite a while since it happened.
My parents were always supposed to go to court to testify but the date was always getting pushed back and I don’t think they been contacted about it for years now.

[roseymare]

Just to chime in…I have been told by quite a few lawyers that papers do not make an owner. Bill of sale makes an owner. Papers will not stand up in court as owner of said horse. Papers on their own per say have no ownership value in a court of law.
I was surprised by this but as I said have heard it from more than one lawyer. Horse owners tend to think of registration papers akin to car titles but apparently the law does not.