This. :yes: When I am considering a stallion with frozen semen, I want to know how many mares are pregnant from the semen. That is IMHO the most important thing.
The EU has standards as far for motility and numbers of progressive sperm post thaw, but those standards do NOT always predict the success the semen will have in producing pregnancies. Pregnancies predict success for pregnancies. :yes:
Just for my education, isn’t it the same with fresh or cooled semen that you can’t predict a high % of pregnancies by just looking at the semen in a microscope?
Can’t answer as an expert or a vet (Kareen? Kathy?), but from my own personal experience – this is true.
I shipped my Teke stallion to a breeder and we were both very dismayed when her vet examined the semen (prior to insemination, I think) and (per her vet) found “this stuff is useless…nothing is moving…looks like they are all dead!!”.
But given the fact the mare was ready, and no time for another collection, they used it.
I think the resulting foal is now 4 yrs old…
My vet said it looked just fine (like 60+%) when she sent it…so maybe the vet wasn’t using a heated slide? Maybe she didn’t let the semen get warm enough before she check? We never found out, but after the mare got pregnant (one dose, one cycle) both of us ceased to care.
AND I’ve known of 2 cases of frozen where it was deemed “useless” by the vet and the mare still got pregnant.
The post thaw standard is at least 35% progressively motile, morphologically normal sperm , not just 35% forward motility. I would like to know if tests are performed on all collections, they should be. The stallion’s output changes with his environment, training schedule and daily routine. Frozen semen is not 100% successful, nor is cooled and live cover as you know. It would be wonderful to have all stallions owners guarantee their product, I don’t see that happening.
A breeding dose is a breeding dose, a minimum of 500 million PMMN post thaw. If brokers are selling 1 dose, it should contain those numbers. Good luck getting that in writing.
I wasted 3 frozen doses last year, not sure what the problem was, but I will try again this year since I can get really good stallions. There’s a leap of faith involved here. I do not have deep pockets and I expect not guarantees that the quality is what I’m hoping.
The US is a small market for EU stallions, I doubt they are going to spend time trying to prove to us that their semen is good. I have to decided to trust them at this point, what choice do we really have. There are stallions know to have no pregancies in the US with frozen semen, some brokers will tell you not to use them. Krack C comes to mind, also Vivaldi and United. Fertility or lack there of is inherited in this case. They are not freezing Tuschinski either.
I’m glad that I took the Repro short course at UC Davis, it was really educational. I also have several stallions, two related with fertility problems, but testing them and watching the numbers and morphology change helps to understand semen, fresh and frozen.
I can chime in with the information that cell counters are used here on a regular basis to process equine semen. What’s being guestimated under the scope is mostly the quality control post thaw check that each vet handling either fresh or frozen semen for instrumental insemination should do.
So the question whether or not the industrial standard is met is merely a matter of simple calculation.
I’m sure Kathy will respond too I am more exposed to the mare end of things than the stallion end. But I can tell you that there are many more parameters than just forward motility to evaluate on a sperm sample. You’re looking at the viability with and without a variety of extenders, number and morphology of misfigured and/or damaged sperm (e.g. archrosome- and tail-defects often relate to lack of care while zentrifugating (sp?) the swimmers) and lastly there are some defects that only show under electrone-microscopy, others aren’t visible even there yet they can result in total infertility (one ex-Bundeschampion from years ago had ‘beautiful’ sperm samples yet didn’t produce a single pregnancy so was retired from the breeding shed soon after. Turned out he had something wrong with his spermatogenesis that was impossible to detect without extensive staining and state of the art biochemistry…)
To make a long story short, yes, the corellation between ‘pretty raw ejaculate’ and fertility in AI-programs is rather low and the best parameter to look at is indeed how many life foals there are per 100 mares bred to him. Will there still be the vet-factor? Yes but overall - at least within the same breeding community - the factor should be the same for all stallions used on a shipped semen program.
Just my 2cts.
Kareen - Changing subjects a little
European Frozen semen - “typically” what is the minimum number of straws for frozen semen? Is three or four the general rule of thumb? Is it rare to have two or less straws. (I’m talking small straws, not the larger ones)
No it completely depends on the density of the original ejaculate and the extender used as well as personal preference. Hence the number of straws may vary even with the same stallion from batch to batch as not all ejaculates are the same. That being said the volumes have gone down over the last years and there are many more stallions frozen with 4 straws to the dose while previously a lot were done with 8 straws around here.
I personally think it might be an effect owed to frozen equine semen being comparatively new to Europe (it only begun to be used more widespread here in the late 90’s) so it probably took “us” a while to understand that volume doesn’t equal quality lol
You might also want to know that frozen semen dealings are highly restricted within the EU. V. different from North America where basically any lay person may call themselves a semen broker and get into trading frozen semen.
Over here you can’t even receive frozen semen as a breeder but you have to be either a veterinary practice, a EU certified insemination station (German EU-Besamungsstation) or a so called Semen depot which requires certain standards in equipment and facilities.
Even as a vet you are not allowed to sell on semen but you may only receive it for mares you are working with. Much like you may purchase meds for your patients but you can not sell it on to a third party or another vet practice.
Now that’s the legal side of things over here 
That is interesting. What kind of paperwork is shipped with the semen?
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;6143834]
That is interesting. What kind of paperwork is shipped with the semen?[/QUOTE]
Date of collection, how many straws that collection, all 3 %s, etc.
Stallion info- pedigree etc is often included.
[QUOTE=Kareen;6143748]
No it completely depends on the density of the original ejaculate and the extender used as well as personal preference. Hence the number of straws may vary even with the same stallion from batch to batch as not all ejaculates are the same. That being said the volumes have gone down over the last years and there are many more stallions frozen with 4 straws to the dose while previously a lot were done with 8 straws around here.
I personally think it might be an effect owed to frozen equine semen being comparatively new to Europe (it only begun to be used more widespread here in the late 90’s) so it probably took “us” a while to understand that volume doesn’t equal quality lol)[/QUOTE]
Yes, but another big reason for the reduction in straws is because there were so many reports coming (primarily from North America) of folks splitting doses and getting successful pregnancies - and breeders were passing the word on to other breeders, including posts on this forum. This of course had a negative impact on sales, so many of the SOs told their repro centers to reduce the number of straws if possible. It’s one thing for a breeder to split an 8-straw dose, and entirely another thing to split a 4-straw dose - too much risk factor, so there are less reports now of doses being split.
See the splitting doesn’t occur so much here as the stallion owners have way more control over the process at least here in Germany. B/C the stallion owner needs to report each breeding to the Verbands hence if you achieve more than one pregnancy with a dose you have to contact the SO and settle the matter. OR you need to talk to them beforehand whether or not they allow for multiple breedings with one dose which most SO’s here freak out over (understandably given the cost of quarantining and freezing those boys and the hazzle of taking them out somewhere else for an extended period of time).
It is a very grey area that certainly will be overdone in the coming 10some years but it protects the stallion owner’s rights quite well.
What it also does is it hinders those vets and breeders who have the knowledge and desire to achieve better results with smaller amounts of semen (something that ultimately works in the industrie’s benefit by allowing to produce more foals with less effort) from using their advantage compared to others who may need more semen.
Classical conflict of interest but I will say I like the fact that semen doesn’t fly around being moved from one person to another who may or may not know how to handle it and foals popping up with “reportedly” this and that sire.
I like the idea that a SO owner sells semen “per straw” and allows the breeder to register as many foals as he can get from any number of straw he bought (here it’s done under vet and DNA control, so no risks of “cheating”)
Today, in France, the majority of breeding’s are sold with a live foal guarantee (1 foal per breeding sold)
So the breeders with fertile mares are subsidizing the breeders with sub fertile mares, not a fair deal.
Kareen - yes, there is a big difference in the way frozen is viewed and handled in NA versus Germany. Here, there is very little government or registry control/oversight. Some registries require an ORIGINAL breeding certificate signed by the SO or agent and inseminating veterinarian for EACH foal. Some do not require a breeding certificate for each foal, or will accept photocopies (which can be duped and presented to different registries). Because there is no coordination or sharing of info between the registries, nor is there a registry oversight group, there is lots of leeway for folks to work the system - including the splitting of doses. Heck, some registries here do not even DNA test all foals to verify parentage, so breeders in those registries can claim their foals are sired by “whomever” and receive registration papers showing that stallion as sire :rolleyes:
Straws per dose & no-guarantee semen
In 13 years of importing frozen semen from Europe I have only once been offered a dose comprised of fewer than three straws. In that case, I protested and the stallion owner supplied three straws thereafter. When you receive one or two straws from a semen broker as a dose, it is highly likely that you have received a partial dose. Frozen semen comes with a data sheet which includes the name of the stallion, the collection date(s) and the number of straws per dose. Usually it states the motility, but not always. Be suspicious of any broker who will not supply you with this information upon request, especially if you have received two straws as a dose.
I sell all of my frozen semen with no guarantee and no restrictions. Since frozen semen can last indefinitely, it becomes impossible to track every dose sold over time. When a purchaser of frozen semen uses two doses and gets no conception, they are simply “out.” They don’t get their money back; they don’t get more semen. Therefore, it seems only fair that when they get two foals from two doses, or even two foals from one dose, that they can register both without having to pay more money. Horse breeders pay plenty for frozen semen and probably, more significantly, for their veterinary expenses. They should not be penalized for their successes, just as they are not compensated for their losses. I am not advocating splitting doses, but it is done. When you purchase no guarantee semen, it is yours to do with as you choose. If you use a partial dose and do not get a conception, you then have to wonder if it was because you used a partial dose.
[QUOTE=Carol Austin;6146434]
In 13 years of importing frozen semen from Europe I have only once been offered a dose comprised of fewer than three straws. In that case, I protested and the stallion owner supplied three straws thereafter. When you receive one or two straws from a semen broker as a dose, it is highly likely that you have received a partial dose. Frozen semen comes with a data sheet which includes the name of the stallion, the collection date(s) and the number of straws per dose. Usually it states the motility, but not always. Be suspicious of any broker who will not supply you with this information upon request, especially if you have received two straws as a dose.
I sell all of my frozen semen with no guarantee and no restrictions. Since frozen semen can last indefinitely, it becomes impossible to track every dose sold over time. When a purchaser of frozen semen uses two doses and gets no conception, they are simply “out.” They don’t get their money back; they don’t get more semen. Therefore, it seems only fair that when they get two foals from two doses, or even two foals from one dose, that they can register both without having to pay more money. Horse breeders pay plenty for frozen semen and probably, more significantly, for their veterinary expenses. They should not be penalized for their successes, just as they are not compensated for their losses. I am not advocating splitting doses, but it is done. When you purchase no guarantee semen, it is yours to do with as you choose. If you use a partial dose and do not get a conception, you then have to wonder if it was because you used a partial dose.[/QUOTE]
I had one stallion that I offered- Raphael, who sometimes came with 3 straw doses, and sometimes with 2 straw doses, but the counts were about the same, and high to boot, so it didnt make any difference. The only people that didnt like it were people whose vets were not doing deep horn insemination, because their vets would tell the clients, they needed more actual semen.
His semen is very very fertile, no matter the quantity.
Same freezing clinic all the time.
For the last 25 years Select Breeders Service has led the way towards the responsible development of the equine frozen semen industry. Two of our core philosophies are:
There is a lot to comment on in this thread, but I shall try and keep it brief and point you to some of our FAQs that can answer some of the questions raised above.
Yes, there is no substitute for pregnancy data, whether fresh, cooled or frozen semen. The true fertility of any frozen semen can only be determined by properly timed insemination of reproductively healthy mares. Motility by itself is an indicator of relative cell health but fertilization is a complex process that requires numerous functional attributes of both sperm and egg and there may be dysfunction of any one of these attributes that renders the sperm incapable of fertilization. Nonetheless, sperm motility is still our best available indicator of semen quality. And remember, many stallions have not bred enough mares to have statistically valuable fertility data.
Here is a blog article you may find helpful:
http://info.selectbreeders.com/blog/bid/96412/Questions-Mare-Owners-Should-Ask-Before-Breeding-With-Frozen-Semen
Yes, you can get pregnancies with semen <30% progressive, see our FAQ:
http://www.selectbreeders.com/s/library_faq#can-you-get-a-mare-in-foal-with-semen-less-than-30-progressive
However, you can’t always compensate for lesser motility by just increasing the number of sperm, even progressively motile sperm, in a dose - it depends whether the defect is compensable or non-compensable. See our newsletter article - It only Takes One - Right?
http://selectbreeders.com/system/attachments/189/original/SBS%20Foundations%20Fall%2007.pdf?1302037318
Finally, post-thaw sperm motility is highly variable depending upon the method of analysis, these variables are discussed in this FAQ:
http://www.selectbreeders.com/s/library_faq#can-t-post-thaw-motility-vary-with-the-laboratory-performing-the-analysis
Julie
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6144236]
I like the idea that a SO owner sells semen “per straw” and allows the breeder to register as many foals as he can get from any number of straw he bought (here it’s done under vet and DNA control, so no risks of “cheating”)
Today, in France, the majority of breeding’s are sold with a live foal guarantee (1 foal per breeding sold)
So the breeders with fertile mares are subsidizing the breeders with sub fertile mares, not a fair deal.[/QUOTE]
Not neccesarily as many stallion stations in France do not request payment of the semen until the foal is actually born so breeders are actually getting a fabulous deal under “poulain vivant” terms. The industry has taken a hammering in France the last couple of years with the changes within the HN which has opened the doors to a mass influx of foreign stallions, in repsonse stallion owners are doing all that they can to maintain their share of a very competitive market.
Plus we always maintain an 8 straw dose policy so it is standardized and not variable depending upon the post-thaw progressive motility.
can you elaborate further as to the reasons why as I was on the understanding that the number of straws often varies from one stallion to another based on the denisty of semen cells within the dose. Some of our semen is 6 straws per dose some 4 straws and some 8 straws depending on the stallion. Each dose equates to the same number of semen cells per dose regardless of the number of straws each dose has no?
If the doses are split by mare owners/vets then the chances of obtaining a pregnancy are going to be reduced if a dose has been frozen with the optimal semen cells per dose no?
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;6144236]
I like the idea that a SO owner sells semen “per straw” and allows the breeder to register as many foals as he can get from any number of straw he bought (here it’s done under vet and DNA control, so no risks of “cheating”)
Today, in France, the majority of breeding’s are sold with a live foal guarantee (1 foal per breeding sold)
So the breeders with fertile mares are subsidizing the breeders with sub fertile mares, not a fair deal.[/QUOTE]
Not neccesarily as many stallion stations in France do not request payment of the semen until the foal is actually born so breeders are actually getting a fabulous deal under “poulain vivant” terms. The industry has taken a hammering in France the last couple of years with the changes within the HN which has opened the doors to a mass influx of foreign stallions, in repsonse stallion owners are doing all that they can to maintain their share of a very competitive market.
Plus we always maintain an 8 straw dose policy so it is standardized and not variable depending upon the post-thaw progressive motility.
Can you elaborate further please Julie as to the reasons why? As I was on the understanding that the number of straws that makes up a “dose” often varies from one stallion to another based on the denisty of semen cells within each straw.
Some of our semen is 6 straws per dose, some 4 straws and some 8 straws depending on the stallion. However each “dose” equates to the same number of semen cells regardless of the number of straws each dose has? I always thought the important criteria is not how many straws you have but that each dose makes up the optimal number of sperm cells to maximise the chance of a pregnancy.
If the doses are split by mare owners/vets then the chances of obtaining a pregnancy are going to be reduced if a dose has been frozen with the optimal semen cells per dose no? with the exception of DUI but even then I understand that its common practice now to split the dose pre and post ovulation to maximise success but a complete dose is still favoured?
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