Severe second founder just 3 months after initial, prognosis?

[1.0mTBjumper]

My 9 year old TB had a mechanical founder of 8-10 degrees in RF this May. It was the result of previous farrier ignoring white line for months. He had to have 40-50% of his hoof wall drimmeled off to stop the growth of the fungus. Obviously with that much hoof missing he cannot go without shoes, so new farrier who specializes in corrective shoeing began putting bar shoes on and backing up the toe and things were going well.

Fast forward 4 months after the farrier apprenticing under the initial corrective farrier has taken over shoeing, and my horse started getting even more lame, to the point of 3 legged lame with daily bute. The new farrier talked with the other farrier and decided to put a backwards shoe on the RF. Told us it should help within a week if its going to. 2 weeks later and still very lame on bute we made a checkup appt with vet to rexray. He has rotated even more. I was not able to be there when the vet xrayed to learn the degrees now. The two farriers met to try a new setup to make him more comfortable so he is now in a leather pad and a bigger bar shoe to give him lots of support.

Vet told me he will never jump again with as severe as his rotation is now. I am still devastated by this as we had just started competing in 1.0m jumpers and were finally moving up the levels.

Has anyone had any success of a horse jumping after rotation? He was my heart horse and its been difficult to come to terms with him possibly not ever being sound enough to ride.

[Scribbler]

I don’t think you can jump a horse while he has a rotation,

You may be able to reduce the rotation over time with proper trimming, but my guess is that it isn’t going to happen with the current farrier team, who seems to have contributed to the problem.

Were you jumping him with half his hoof wall missing?

There is also a cautionary tale here about needing to keep our own eyes on the horse. The previous farrier missed white line disease for months. Did you not see it? Was it invisible with the shoes on? Did you not see it while the horse was being trimmed, or were you not present at the farrier appointments? Going forward it sounds like you need to be more proactive in his health; well, the situation itself will end up forcing that, I suppose.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

Reverse shoes is such an antiquated approach to founder. Did the farrier have anything to support the frog or just decided not to support it and let it get worse? First get some frog support on his foot before anymore damage is done if it isn’t supported now. Then find a new farrier, seriously. I would also look for an equine podiatrist to prescribe a treatment plan and stick with it.

Whether or not he competes again is secondary to saving saving his life at the moment. I had a mare that had a lot of rotation and sinking come back to do endurance. With proper farrier work, I have seen miracles. It’s going to be a very very long haul though.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Well bar shoes are often more harmful than helpful.
Resectioning with reversed shoes and pour in pads may be “old fashioned” but still works.
Get some soft ride hoof boots.

After your horse’s hooves grow out in about a year, you will be able to tell if he is sound for riding and maybe jumping. Patience is required.

[CHT]

A year ago our vet clinic held a clinic for farriers on treatment for rotation, and the method that was taught (by a specialist farrier) was to have a rocker shoe. Our farrier then tried just a rocker trim on my pony, which I am sure was less effective than a shoe, but did make her much more comfortable, and she recovered fully. So I wonder if you need to find more of a specialist vet/farrier to help improve your horse’s chances of a full recovery.

[AKB]

Was the white line disease caused by a previous founder? I am concerned about the reason that he has recurrent laminitis. Does he have Cushings? Is he eating red maple?

[Scribbler]

@AKB

Was the white line disease caused by a previous founder? I am concerned about the reason that he has recurrent laminitis. Does he have Cushings? Is he eating red maple?

I understand the OP to say that this was mechanical founder caused by the farrier taking off (“resectioning”) 40 % to 50 % of the hoof wall to take away wall that was compromised by the white line disease fungal infection. It’s not clear if the white line disease compromised the hoof integrity so that the coffin bone collapsed away from the wall, or if the coffin bone collapsed because so much hoof was take off. In other words, did the white line disease by itself cause the founder, or did the treatment for the white line disease cause the founder?

The other thing I’m not clear on, is if the horse needed shoes after the resectioning, exactly what the shoe was being attached to? If there was no outer wall on that foot?

Though as AKB says, why did the horse get white line disease in the first place? Was the white line disease caused by an earlier laminitic episode, or was the the white line disease purely fungal, and weakened the hoof enough to cause mechanical founder?

I have to say I am a little horrifed that treating one ailment (white line disease) which is nasty but not fatal, could lead to a second ailment, mechanical founder, which could be life threatening.

I am also curious as to when the vet was called in and when xrays were taken. It sounds like there were xrays in May and then more recently?

[1.0mTBjumper]

@Scribbler

I understand the OP to say that this was mechanical founder caused by the farrier taking off (“resectioning”) 40 % to 50 % of the hoof wall to take away wall that was compromised by the white line disease fungal infection. It’s not clear if the white line disease compromised the hoof integrity so that the coffin bone collapsed away from the wall, or if the coffin bone collapsed because so much hoof was take off. In other words, did the white line disease by itself cause the founder, or did the treatment for the white line disease cause the founder?

The other thing I’m not clear on, is if the horse needed shoes after the resectioning, exactly what the shoe was being attached to? If there was no outer wall on that foot?

Though as AKB says, why did the horse get white line disease in the first place? Was the white line disease caused by an earlier laminitic episode, or was the the white line disease purely fungal, and weakened the hoof enough to cause mechanical founder?

I have to say I am a little horrifed that treating one ailment (white line disease) which is nasty but not fatal, could lead to a second ailment, mechanical founder, which could be life threatening.

I am also curious as to when the vet was called in and when xrays were taken. It sounds like there were xrays in May and then more recently?

The white line in itself was the cause of the founder. I had questioned old farrier about all of the “chipping” on the foot for a couple months and he claimed it was just seedy toe and was growing out, which I did question. At the time I did not know of any other farriers who were taking on new clients in my area. I understand everyone’s concern for the initial cause but believe me I pay very close attention to him and it was not metabolic. The white line was able to get into the hoof and grow because of the extremely wet conditions (Louisiana) and old farrier not taking off enough toe which had been asked of him several times.
The front section of the hoof was resectioned, not the sides so he barely had enough to get 2 good nails on each side of the hoof. Neither vet nor farrier wanted to cast or glue on because the initial cause was a fungus, both of those would have given the fungus the perfect environment to grow.
Yes xrays were taken in May when my tough as nails horse came up lame and I couldn’t find an abscess. My vet is great at locating the lameness problem quickly and knew within 5 minutes of looking at him he had white line. He xrayed before the corrective farrier came so that the proper shoeing could be done and that was when the rotation was discovered. The white line had eaten away at all of the laminae allowing the coffin bone to sink. I also had xrays taken in August which showed the same amount as origingal rotation, so the further rotation happened after being reshod in august.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@Scribbler

I don’t think you can jump a horse while he has a rotation,

You may be able to reduce the rotation over time with proper trimming, but my guess is that it isn’t going to happen with the current farrier team, who seems to have contributed to the problem.

Were you jumping him with half his hoof wall missing?

There is also a cautionary tale here about needing to keep our own eyes on the horse. The previous farrier missed white line disease for months. Did you not see it? Was it invisible with the shoes on? Did you not see it while the horse was being trimmed, or were you not present at the farrier appointments? Going forward it sounds like you need to be more proactive in his health; well, the situation itself will end up forcing that, I suppose.

I am open to constructive help and advice but not someone assuming that I don’t take care of my horse. I was obviously not jumping him with his hoof wall missing because that resectioned at the original vet appt that I made because I knew that my horse did not just have an abscess by the level of lameness he showed. At the same appt he was xrayed, showing the rotation, and started on corrective shoeing after the resection. I had questioned my old farrier about it a couple of times and he kept shrugging it off and saying it was seedy toe that was growing out. I did not know of any other farriers that had a better rep than him who were taking new clients so I did not initially have options at that time to switch, although I was on the lookout.
If you have any other positive or actually helpful advice I would be open to hearing it, otherwise, I will be focusing on others who actually understand what I was asking.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@Second Star To The Right

Reverse shoes is such an antiquated approach to founder. Did the farrier have anything to support the frog or just decided not to support it and let it get worse? First get some frog support on his foot before anymore damage is done if it isn’t supported now. Then find a new farrier, seriously. I would also look for an equine podiatrist to prescribe a treatment plan and stick with it.

Whether or not he competes again is secondary to saving saving his life at the moment. I had a mare that had a lot of rotation and sinking come back to do endurance. With proper farrier work, I have seen miracles. It’s going to be a very very long haul though.

Yes I know this is a long haul. With the second rotation, vet said I am looking at possibly close to 2 years of recovery, and I am prepared for that, I will do whatever it takes to get him at least pasture sound. No they didn’t put anything like a heart bar on him, although I asked my vet about it and he said that it might help. My farriers try to be as least “intrustive” as possible, meaning they want to see if he can be sound with minimal footwear. Which is an approach I respect, if you don’t have to, don’t do it. They did put leather pads on this last time with a hoof packing underneath, I believe they don’t want the pads to become a crutch, but understand now he needed more support. I have looked for equine podiatrists around me but sadly there is no one even close as I live in Louisiana and I also don’t know the reputations if i were able to haul him all the way to kentucky or somewhere with more options, as I don’t want to drive all that way and not have picked the right equine podiatrist. If anyone has experience with ones good or bad I would love to hear them.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@WildandWickedWarmbloods

Well bar shoes are often more harmful than helpful.
Resectioning with reversed shoes and pour in pads may be “old fashioned” but still works.
Get some soft ride hoof boots.

After your horse’s hooves grow out in about a year, you will be able to tell if he is sound for riding and maybe jumping. Patience is required.

Can soft ride hoof boots be used over shoes? Sadly with him missing hoof wall too, taking a barefoot approach isn’t applicable right now. I understood that bar shoes gave more support to the hoof, is that not what you know by your experience? I know that patience is required (possibly 1.5-2 years now), I mainly wanted to see if anyone had a similar experience where the horse did compete again.

[Scribbler]

@1.0mTBjumper

I am open to constructive help and advice but not someone assuming that I don’t take care of my horse. I was obviously not jumping him with his hoof wall missing because that resectioned at the original vet appt that I made because I knew that my horse did not just have an abscess by the level of lameness he showed. At the same appt he was xrayed, showing the rotation, and started on corrective shoeing after the resection. I had questioned my old farrier about it a couple of times and he kept shrugging it off and saying it was seedy toe that was growing out. I did not know of any other farriers that had a better rep than him who were taking new clients so I did not initially have options at that time to switch, although I was on the lookout.
If you have any other positive or actually helpful advice I would be open to hearing it, otherwise, I will be focusing on others who actually understand what I was asking.

Thanks for the details, that all makes sense now! Apologies for anything that sounded like I was questioning your care. But on COTH we don’t know anything about anybody unless they tell us, especially new members, and a significant number of threads are started by folks who are missing some of the basics. And often getting suggestions on the basics is very helpful for those posters.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

@1.0mTBjumper

Can soft ride hoof boots be used over shoes? Sadly with him missing hoof wall too, taking a barefoot approach isn’t applicable right now. I understood that bar shoes gave more support to the hoof, is that not what you know by your experience? I know that patience is required (possibly 1.5-2 years now), I mainly wanted to see if anyone had a similar experience where the horse did compete again.

When one of mine got resection for white line, the shoe was nailed on and there was just a big gap where the hoof was cut out. No problem with the shoe staying on.

You can put a soft ride over a shoe but I would not do so. I’d have the shoe put on and buy the pour in pad stuff from Jeffersequine.com, and use that as my farrier did. Buy the application gun also to apply the pour in pad. My farrier did all the work every 6 weeks until the hoof grew out and my horse could be shod normally.

[betsyk]

Years ago, I took my horse to the vet school every 3 weeks to be reset when he had WLD, for about 6 months. The same team still works on foundered horses and many of the referrals in our area. They have a lot more sophisticated shoeing approaches than you describe. Sounds like it’s time for your local team to do some networking (and some continuing ed). Best of all worlds, but expensive, can you get an appointment somewhere and bring your farriers along for the day? I’ve been at the vet school on days where there were half a dozen farriers huddled around a horse, a whole bunch of rigs taking up all the trailer parking, and at the end of the day a whole bunch of horses in remote areas benefit. Just a thought.

[Sistersiouxz]

I’d put together, case history, x-rays and videos, everything to have and can think of and send (Google his name) to Dr. Ric Redden - DVM and farrier known the world over. I think the team consultation is 250.00. Best money you will ever spend for founder. While your horse is in treatment, read and learn the amazing mechanics of a horses foot. You will need to know this and be present for every farrier procedure for the rest of your horse’s life. Soundness and reasonance soundness can be reached. I have found the horses attitude is a big part of getting there but it MUST be supported by a knowledgeable and patient owner. Please document your progress and keep us informed. I hope you have success.

[NC001]

My daughter leases a horse that had significant rotation and the vets said would never be sound for riding again. She came back into work after a year off and my daughter jumps her (under 3 feet but she has stayed sound). She does have some sort of special shoes but nothing too crazy. The farrier worked a lot with her.

[Scribbler]

@Sistersiouxz

I’d put together, case history, x-rays and videos, everything to have and can think of and send (Google his name) to Dr. Ric Redden - DVM and farrier known the world over. I think the team consultation is 250.00. Best money you will ever spend for founder. While your horse is in treatment, read and learn the amazing mechanics of a horses foot. You will need to know this and be present for every farrier procedure for the rest of your horse’s life. Soundness and reasonance soundness can be reached. I have found the horses attitude is a big part of getting there but it MUST be supported by a knowledgeable and patient owner. Please document your progress and keep us informed. I hope you have success.

Yes I totally agree that once a horse gets a life threatening or chronic condition the owner has to step up to the plate, self educate in a hurry, and become the advocate for the horse.

Your horse could be getting poor care, adequate care, or superb care for his particular issue.

I don’t think any horse gets superb care unless the owner is in there advocating and making the best choices. Obviously of course some owners make poor or merely adequate choices. But I don’t think any combo of barn owner farrier vet and trainer make excellent care happen except maybe at the very highest levels of Olympic horses.

For the average owner deferring to the average level of care is not going to get you excellent outcomes.

It’s a bit like if your child comes down with a rare disease. You’d need to be the advocate for the child research the condition, switch doctors as needed, etc.

This is above and beyond normal requirements of horse ownership (or parenting).

Obviously lots of horse ailments resolve with adequate care. But with founder it does seem like there is a chance of undoing some of the rotation for some horses with excellent hoof trim and balance. But you need to go find that care because the common wisdom is that the horse is now crocked for life and there’s not much to do about it.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@NC001

My daughter leases a horse that had significant rotation and the vets said would never be sound for riding again. She came back into work after a year off and my daughter jumps her (under 3 feet but she has stayed sound). She does have some sort of special shoes but nothing too crazy. The farrier worked a lot with her.

Thank you for the encouraging story! Although I can’t predict the outcome I wanted to see if there were any special cases where the horse did return to jumping at some level!

[1.0mTBjumper]

@Sistersiouxz

I’d put together, case history, x-rays and videos, everything to have and can think of and send (Google his name) to Dr. Ric Redden - DVM and farrier known the world over. I think the team consultation is 250.00. Best money you will ever spend for founder. While your horse is in treatment, read and learn the amazing mechanics of a horses foot. You will need to know this and be present for every farrier procedure for the rest of your horse’s life. Soundness and reasonance soundness can be reached. I have found the horses attitude is a big part of getting there but it MUST be supported by a knowledgeable and patient owner. Please document your progress and keep us informed. I hope you have success.

Thank you for the vet recommendation! I have been researching as much as I can from the beginning but was having a hard time finding actual reviews of vets who would be good for this case.
I will, thank you!

[1.0mTBjumper]

@WildandWickedWarmbloods

When one of mine got resection for white line, the shoe was nailed on and there was just a big gap where the hoof was cut out. No problem with the shoe staying on.

You can put a soft ride over a shoe but I would not do so. I’d have the shoe put on and buy the pour in pad stuff from Jeffersequine.com, and use that as my farrier did. Buy the application gun also to apply the pour in pad. My farrier did all the work every 6 weeks until the hoof grew out and my horse could be shod normally.

Yes that sounds like the same thing my farrier did, he had enough hoof wall on the sides to nail the shoe on but is just missing the front middle section.
This last reset they put a hoof packing and a leather pad on, does that do something similar to a pour in pad? I know the basics of pads but not the details of when or why one is favored over another as I have never had to have pads on a horse before.