Severe second founder just 3 months after initial, prognosis?

[IPEsq]

A pour in pad will provide a lot more support than the leather pad. One thing that will help the hoof grow properly is to keep support on the frog. The pour in pad can help with this (there are also frog support regular pads), because the pour in goes all the way to the ground.

So, he rotated in May, didn’t get any worse through August. And now he’s recently gotten worse? He definitely needs to be the priority of the better farrier on the team. I don’t get why the farrier would think his apprentice would have the experience to handle this situation.

Maybe you could post over in Off Course as well asking for a recommendation for a corrective farrier near enough to you?

[1.0mTBjumper]

@IPEsq

A pour in pad will provide a lot more support than the leather pad. One thing that will help the hoof grow properly is to keep support on the frog. The pour in pad can help with this (there are also frog support regular pads), because the pour in goes all the way to the ground.

So, he rotated in May, didn’t get any worse through August. And now he’s recently gotten worse? He definitely needs to be the priority of the better farrier on the team. I don’t get why the farrier would think his apprentice would have the experience to handle this situation.

Maybe you could post over in Off Course as well asking for a recommendation for a corrective farrier near enough to you?

That makes sense about the pads! Do pour in pads possibly have a greater chance of allowing fungus to grow than a leather pad? I believe that was one of their concerns as to why they waited so long to try any type of pad since the white line fungus was the cause.

The corrective farrier is trying to retire because he is having more health issues lately, and the new farrier he’s teaching is very eager to learn which is good and bad, as the vet and I both think he reads a lot but maybe doesn’t always check the validity of the information he’s reading, just blindly accepting it as true. From what I understood the new farrier asked specifically to take over my horses and since things had seemed to be going well at that point he said ok.

[bitranchy]

@betsyk

Years ago, I took my horse to the vet school every 3 weeks to be reset when he had WLD, for about 6 months. The same team still works on foundered horses and many of the referrals in our area. They have a lot more sophisticated shoeing approaches than you describe. Sounds like it’s time for your local team to do some networking (and some continuing ed). Best of all worlds, but expensive, can you get an appointment somewhere and bring your farriers along for the day? I’ve been at the vet school on days where there were half a dozen farriers huddled around a horse, a whole bunch of rigs taking up all the trailer parking, and at the end of the day a whole bunch of horses in remote areas benefit. Just a thought.

Quoted for reference

Perhaps if the new farrier is keen to learn, it could work to both your advantage. If there’s the possibility of bringing the horse to a specialized clinic, as betsyk suggested, I’d think the new farrier would jump at the chance to go.

Of course, just a suggestion. However, if you’re concerned with this newer guy’s lack of experience or understanding of corrective shoeing but you have few options for farrier work going forward, it could be something to look at.

[IPEsq]

I don’t think the pour in will create any better environment for white line than the leather pad. The sole is going to be covered either way. The pour in pad sticks directly to the sole some, and there is one that is infused with copper sulfate, which is anti-fungal. My farrier only uses that kind because even on a healthy foot, it will help prevent thrush and other things from developing to the extent that it may happen when the sole isn’t open to the air. I think it’s a bit less likely with the pour in to be a problem also because you don’t have any gaps between pad and the sole for moisture and gunk to get in there. You’d still have the resectioned front area open as much as it still is open at this stage. If there’s a gap at all between the shoe and the hoof, some duct tape will keep the pour in pad from migrating out while it sets up (a few minutes). Long story short, if the hoof is healthy enough for a leather pad at this point, then I’d think it should be healthy enough for a pour in pad.

If the rotation is such that he can’t handle the pressure of the pour in pad under the toe area, then you can put some play-doh or putty there and do a half pour in for the rear of the foot and frog support. The putty will then be removed once the pad is set.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@bitranchy

Quoted for reference

Perhaps if the new farrier is keen to learn, it could work to both your advantage. If there’s the possibility of bringing the horse to a specialized clinic, as betsyk suggested, I’d think the new farrier would jump at the chance to go.

Of course, just a suggestion. However, if you’re concerned with this newer guy’s lack of experience or understanding of corrective shoeing but you have few options for farrier work going forward, it could be something to look at.

I do think that would be a good experience and option for both my horse and new farrier, the closest school to me is LSU ( I’m in NE Louisiana) and it is still a 4 hour drive. So although just taking my horse there would be no problem, it’s just far enough to be a stretch to bring my farrier along to. But it is something I may ask about, he might would be interested in going to learn.
Thanks for the suggestion!

[1.0mTBjumper]

@IPEsq

If the rotation is such that he can’t handle the pressure of the pour in pad under the toe area, then you can put some play-doh or putty there and do a half pour in for the rear of the foot and frog support. The putty will then be removed once the pad is set.

That is where I believe he is most sore, there is debate from the vet/farrier team on if it is just his sole or if it is specifically the toe. But that is good to know you can put it only on the back half for frog support!

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Don’t worry about fungus with the pour in pad. I’ll look up the brand on Jeffers website. It really makes a horse comfortable rather than the harder bar shoe. Get the gun to use for farrier to put in the pad. It gets changed every 6 weeks when shoes are reset, so buy more than one tube of the stuff at a time. It works. BTDT. I’d not recommend it if it wasn’t the best. Of course I had the best farrier. The toe area was resectioned founder on one horse. (Caused by a drug, not by anything else.) The white line issue was caused on another horse by moving to a new barn where the low lying swampy pastures caused growth of the white line causing “bugs” in the rainwater. Solution was great farrier, now retired.

Having a great farrier is the solution. Without that, you must ask us on a board and you never know what is the best solution for your problems. So I only say what has worked for me when I had the expert farrier before his retirement.

Yes you can use play doe which your farrier should know about. Buy it. But if the toe is sore, I’d want the farrier to resection the toes. Takes the pressure off and the relief is immediate for the horse. Worked for me. Took a year for hooves to grow out but saved my horse which was not IR nor had cushings but vet gave a drug that shouldn’t have been given.

I agree with IPEsq.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@IPEsq is dead on the money. Why was an apprentice working on a hoof with that much rotation? And while a reverse or any other shoe with a pour in CAN work, the OP confirmed there was no frog support added so it’s not the best choice.

Bar shoes can be positively lethal if they are applied wrong and I’ve had horses that couldn’t tolerate an aluminum or steel bar that did great in an epona shoe. Sometimes it’s all about finding what is comfortable for the horse but I’ve never seen it take a week to know if better comfort had been achieved. I adopted a dead lame bilateral sinker with tons of rotation on one foot and moderate on the other. The minute we hit in the right formula, there was noticeable difference. The same was true for both Dex and his sister. Not that they were sound right away (well, Dex was) but there was big difference in how they loaded the foot.

Equipak makes a copper infused pour in to that should lessen any chance of problems from fungus or bacteria. The local farrier supply should have it. My point is, a therapeutic farrier should know this stuff.

Hopefully it will ease ease your mind to know that mine has been in a regular, non medicated pour in pad since the end of June and under it is beautiful hoof. The pads will also help to stimulate sole growth.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@1.0mTBjumper also, maybe ask your vet to look into stem cell therapy to aid the laminar regrowth.

[TWH_Girl]

@1.0mTBjumper

I am open to constructive help and advice but not someone assuming that I don’t take care of my horse. I was obviously not jumping him with his hoof wall missing because that resectioned at the original vet appt that I made because I knew that my horse did not just have an abscess by the level of lameness he showed. At the same appt he was xrayed, showing the rotation, and started on corrective shoeing after the resection. I had questioned my old farrier about it a couple of times and he kept shrugging it off and saying it was seedy toe that was growing out. I did not know of any other farriers that had a better rep than him who were taking new clients so I did not initially have options at that time to switch, although I was on the lookout.
If you have any other positive or actually helpful advice I would be open to hearing it, otherwise, I will be focusing on others who actually understand what I was asking.

OP, so very sorry about your horse. Scribbler is a good egg though.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@Second Star To The Right

@IPEsq is dead on the money. Why was an apprentice working on a hoof with that much rotation? And while a reverse or any other shoe with a pour in CAN work, the OP confirmed there was no frog support added so it’s not the best choice.

Bar shoes can be positively lethal if they are applied wrong and I’ve had horses that couldn’t tolerate an aluminum or steel bar that did great in an epona shoe. Sometimes it’s all about finding what is comfortable for the horse but I’ve never seen it take a week to know if better comfort had been achieved. I adopted a dead lame bilateral sinker with tons of rotation on one foot and moderate on the other. The minute we hit in the right formula, there was noticeable difference. The same was true for both Dex and his sister. Not that they were sound right away (well, Dex was) but there was big difference in how they loaded the foot.

Equipak makes a copper infused pour in to that should lessen any chance of problems from fungus or bacteria. The local farrier supply should have it. My point is, a therapeutic farrier should know this stuff.

Hopefully it will ease ease your mind to know that mine has been in a regular, non medicated pour in pad since the end of June and under it is beautiful hoof. The pads will also help to stimulate sole growth.

I was under the initial impression that the corrective farrier would be doing him until he had regrown a new hoof. But although I am calling the other guy his apprentice, he has actually been shoeing for like 5 years I think now, so still not super exprienced but not completely new. He is new to the world of corrective farriery though imo. I have asked him if he has worked on other foundered horses and he said he has worked on several and put some in a W shoe, which I’m guessing is similar to a heart bar with the toe cut off. He never tried that with my guy only the backwards shoe, which I wonder if it allowed the more rotation to occur because it did not have anything underneath the toe. This guy obviously still has a lot to learn and my vet i believe talked to him about calling him before he wants to try anything to get an ok from him.

oh wow I didn’t realize those pads could help the growth of the sole, my guy definitely needs to grow more sole, typical TB thin soles originally hasn’t helped his case.

[IPEsq]

Yes Equipak pour ins will promote more sole growth in addition to providing support.

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@1.0mTBjumper As a general rule, I keep something under my frogs until the damaged lamina has grown out. Occasionally, I have panic attacks about what I’m going to use right here on this board. Lol. Now that I have a pair of boots for Dex I won’t have to run around like my hair is on Fire inventing things but if you ever run into a situation where this happens and you need emergency support, the pad in the bottom of the hoof savers soak boot from tractor supply works great as do garden kneel pads from HD or Lowe’s etc.

i hope you horse is improving.

[1.0mTBjumper]

I was able to talk with the new farrier yesterday and he informed me that even though I set everything up so that when the farriers came to show him at the vet’s they would be able to see the X-rays. However no one at the clinic knew about the X-rays to show them… (vet was out of town after he took the X-rays so he wasn’t present to show the xrays, although many others could have pulled them up but didn’t…) He did say that the hoof packing and leather pad they chose are functioning like a pour in pad. He said “we thought the pour in pad would be too much” when I was asking him about the difference. I’m guessing he meant too much pressure? I didn’t get clarity on that part.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

Your vet should burn a disk with radiographs and give it to your farrier.

Does your farrier have the materials for the pour in pads including the applicator (gun)? Sometimes they use what they have rather than getting what is best. Which is why I suggest you go to Jeffersequine.com or some other place and buy several of the pour in pad applications and a gun. My farrier had some of that and to save him having to buy more, I bought them, and gave him the new gun since his old applicator was falling apart, and kept a supply of the pour in containers on hand just in case of hoof problems. Ditto with egg bar shoes (not heart bar) for other hoof issues not mentioned here.

[1.0mTBjumper]

@WildandWickedWarmbloods I think my vet thought one of the techs or other vet’s there when the farriers came would show them, but since that didn’t happen, I sent the new farrier the picture I have of all of his X-rays and he told me anytime I get X-rays he would love for me to send them in case he doesn’t get to at the vet.

He did say that he had all of the stuff for pour in pads but said that they thought it would be too much.

[IPEsq]

Sorry, but a leather pad with packing does not function like the pour in. It just can’t, unless there’s a new magical way the pad is flush to the ground. The pour in goes to the ground and is more so stimulates the frog and sole. It provides more protection from concussion forces as well. It is possible it would be too much under the toe, depending on how much he’s rotated now and how thin the sole, which is why you can do a half pour to at least cover the frog.

[Kyrabee]

You need to support the bony column. He doesn’t have the hoof wall or laminae to do that so he needs support from the ground up, especially under the frog. That is the only place you can pad him up…there isn’t enough structure where he had the resection to do it. Look up frog support pads. Pour-in pads can also function for this as IPEsq described.

Good luck with your guy.

Susan

[1.0mTBjumper]

@IPEsq maybe that is what he meant because I know that he had been worried about him being sore on his toe with the resection. I see what you are saying that it can’t reach the ground completely to give as much support as a pour in. The tip of the coffin bone is below the width of a horseshoe, so extremely thin sole underneath the bone now.

Thanks @Kyrabee

[Second_Star_To_The_R]

@1.0mTBjumper I’m sorry to say, but at this point I will reiterate that you need an equine podiatrist to form a treatment plan and a farrier that will follow it. Your horse has unstable founder and it’s sounds like is in danger of perforation from lack of frog support. The hoof wall is compromised, the internal “glue” that hold the inner workings of that hoof are dried and flaking and giving out under the weight. I can only speak for myself but I would never accept "but they didn’t show me the X-rays ". Why didn’t the farrier reach out to you when xrays weren’t produced? And why are you just hearing that they didn’t have access to xrays? Have you questioned the vet regarding the failure on their end? It sounds like communication is poor between all parties and that can only improve if you coordinate it. It may be difficult but you need to be present for treatment and shoeing and a discussion that gets everyone on the same page during the acute phase of this horse’s illness.

Im confused, is you horse currently an inpatient at a hospital facility?