Share ideas for a horse that's a little cold backed/grumpy about going forward

A question was asked who here has no aches or pains and bounces out of bed in the morning? I answered that. I then said it may be just luck or could be from other things in my life. I am guessing both.

I added the no coffee, etc, because you often hear people say they are no good until they have had their first coffee.

I would say the main thing would probably be the rain water I drink instead of other drinks. I saw a thing on TV where people were selling mineralized water out of a dam and claiming good health effects if you did. The TV show took a bottle of the water to a doctor and asked him if it was true. He said if everyone drank an extra cup of tap water each day they would get the same benefits.

Also I am not in a snow country, the difference the heat of the fire in the house made to my then in constant pain arm was absolute. I have heard that people retire to Florida over there because it is warmer in their old age for aches and pains.

But yes there are people out there without aches and pains and bounce out of bed in the morning. I am sure I am not the only one.

Each post gets funnier… :laughing:

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Yes, I understand why you commented saying you have no aches and pains. Still doesn’t explain what tattoos, piercings, Coca Cola, coffee, tea, milk???, etc. have to do with that. It just sounded awfully pretentious to me.

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LOL I don’t drink them because of pretentious. I dont drink them because I don’t like them. I dont like pain if even only temporary. I have to hold my breath going past coffee shops. I hate the smell of coffee.

Mum calls me Plain Jane & Simple. I did not mean it was a good thing. Just what I don’t do and maybe, just maybe it might be a reason why I jump out of bed full of energy every morning with not one single ache or pain. Or you can put it down to just luck if you want. I dint believe anyone could be that lucky.

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I was going to second the counter conditioning idea. This post mentioning both the effectiveness of rewards and a loathing of using them caught my attention. Why is it horse people hate treats and rewards so much? Behaviour studies in all sorts of animals consistently show they (and we!) will work longer, harder, and more willingly for a reward than to avoid a punishment.

Counter conditioning seeks to replace a negative association with a positive one. So right now the mare sees the tack and thinks angry thoughts. The goal is to have her see the tack and think ā€œYay, treats!ā€ The hardest part for people to wrap their head around is that the treats happen no matter what the horse does, so even if she’s scowling you still treat. This will not teach her to scowl for food. After a while of pairing the presence of tack with food, she will start to prick her ears when she sees it. If you wanted to teach her to scowl for food, at this point you would have to wait until she scowled again to reward. As long as you don’t do that, her happy thoughts will result in happy behaviour. That said, you can still correct her if she does something heinous like bite you. But the point is to change her gut reaction, not her conscious behaviour.

Obviously, also continue to look for ways to improve her physical comfort. Your success (or not) with this may also help sort out whether she is experiencing ongoing discomfort or just had a long memory.

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Heating pad. I have one that I put on about 10-15 min prior to saddling. Put on, groom horse. When done grooming, the heating pad comes off and tack goes on. Helps warm things up prior to getting on. Magic.

Google Sharper Image XXL Calming Heat. It’s oversized and fits horses backs well. :slight_smile:

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Two weeks in, and she is a lot less cold now. She had no other vices or behavioral clues that would have told you she was riddled with ulcers-- we scoped her after not being able to identify the reason behind why she was all of a sudden very lazy.

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Agree here. I spend a minimum of 15 minutes of just walking at the start of every ride. He seems to like the no pressure strolling around and lets me know when he’s ready for more by going forward a little more energetically, not bucking but forward walking.

If you’re still looking for girth suggestions, the Majyk Equipe Super horse girth is a favorite for my sensitive horse. If it fit my other horse I’d use it on her too, it’s super nice. Lightweight, wide across the sternum and non neoprene so it doesn’t hold heat. I think it was $86 or so so not too expensive either.

Long reply with an update.

In addition to the helpful non-veterinary suggestions on this thread (many of which I had already tried/was already doing), there were suggestions to explore PSSM. That was very helpful.

She seems ambivalent to girth type (including the tapestry girth—I was never able to find the alleged horror stories about the girth and she reacted no differently to it than any other girth). She had lost some topline and I had my saddle reflocked. She seems about the same with a back warmed first by a BOT or other product. She doesn’t dislike this but I didn’t see a noticeable difference.

Lunging, slow walking warmup first, slow progression of tightening the girth, really good grooming over the back before riding, going slow with grooming and tacking, walking in hand before getting on, suppling exercises at the walk—I had tried/still do all of these things and none of them seem to make a significant difference.

Okay so on to that PSSM suggestion which was so helpful…

She tested negative for Type 1 by genetic test (no huge surprise there given that she’s a WB). After a few false starts getting the PSSM Type 2 genetic test done, I got the results back yesterday. She is heterozygous positive for the P2 PSSM2 gene mutation, homozygous for the P8 PSSM2 gene mutation, and homozygous for the PxRER gene mutation. There is some controversy over the reliability of this genetic testing, but the more definitive diagnosis is via muscle biopsy and I am not inclined to put her through that until I try the diet first (and I’d rather do it after fly season anyway because it involves remove a big chunk of flesh which then has to heal).

I had bloodwork drawn for allergy testing while working up the PSSM, and she has some food allergies, including most notably corn, soy, oats, and flax. She’s starting allergy shots, but those primarily target non-food allergies so it’s best to try to eliminate food allergens from the diet entirely (this would be my 3rd horse tested for allergies that came back with some significant food allergies so I have been down the allergy road many times before).

I’ve started switching her over to PSSM Type 2 diet.

Full lameness workup, again very sound.

I also did a CBC and Lyme test and she was not deficient in anything (including Vitamin E) or positive for Lyme. But I did those too because I thought those were good to rule out the other very appropriate suggestions for possible explanations. She had another set of x-rays done and they look as pristine and perfect as the first—no kissing spines. She did have resting and post-exercise CK tested and it elevated post exercise so there’s another anecdotal piece of data to suggest PSSM Type 2. Again, not definative-- but enough to make me think I should try the diet.

I didn’t scope her because I wanted to try one thing at a time and once I hit on PSSM Type 2 being a likely culprit I wanted to try the diet first. But if the diet doesn’t work, scoping will be on the list.

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Good for you for trying to do right by the horse.

Out of curiosity, what does your PSSM2 diet look like? I’m just curious because I’m going through this same thing with my mare.

Recently had the weirdest diagnosis. She was sometimes cold backed when I got on, more likely if she had a day or a few off. The main symptom was kicking up her hindlegs in canter, though. After trying many ways to solve it (many of the suggestions here were done) the answer was found on rectal ultrasound. Arthritis under her sacrum, likely due to soft tissue not healing right from an injury like slipping in mud or ice.

I’m relieved to know the answer but she is not able to pursue sport and will be a broodmare.

ETA during the final vet visit we x-rayed her entire back, no kissing spine, then ultrasounded her stifles, then her pelvis from above. Because it’s done a full course of Gastroguard with no change we skipped the next suggestion which was scoping, and did the rectal ultrasound.

If I could do this over, I would take her to the specialist vet a year earlier and spent the money on a diagnosis.

I bought her custom saddle, TSF girth, tried bute, had lameness exams (she was sound), tried hormones, changed her diet. I had others ride, trainer ride, expert coach opinion. Tried time off, extended warm ups with tons of suppling, massage, stretching, lunging, etc. No dice, obviously.

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For the past six months I’ve been riding a horse that has been described as ā€œslow as molasses.ā€ Unlike your horse, he comes to the ring with a great attitude. He’s just REALLY slow. Won’t really move forward. No coaxing with the dressage whip will help. About 45 minutes into the ride he finds the go button. He’s been super stiff with lateral work and struggles with his left bend.

So I started doing peppermint stretches. The horse couldn’t reach his neck around to get one without throwing out his hip. For a few weeks I would reward him every time he stepped forward. Over time he was able to bend around to grab his reward.

I suspected poll stiffness and started doing some prep-ride massages. He really relaxed, dropped his head and licked and chewed. That ride I noticed he was less stiff and even more willing to try. Finally, I decided to get him a massage. That was really interesting! This poor guy had numerous issues on his right side. His poll, shoulder, mid back, hamstrings. But he was receptive to everything and let the therapist do her bodywork.

The next time I rode him, I was incredibly surprised at the change. He had a great swing in his rib cage, his walk was decent, he would actually move forward and had his own motor (wasn’t speeding around by any means but better). I was even able to get him to hand gallop, which he’s not done for months.

A few others have also ridden him since this appointment and we’ve all found the improvement to be remarkable. Today I even had to settle him going to a jump which I’ve never had to do since we are normally begging him to just please go forward. This poor guy has been stuck in his own body.

Fortunately I was given some great things to try, areas where I can focus on a stretch or using pressure, and he just keeps getting better and better. I can’t wait to have her out again to see what else she can do to help him. I knew it would help but had no idea that it would be such a huge improvement after just one visit.

Might work for you, might not. A person who excels at bodywork can often help you pinpoint the problem (and I’m gifted to have a very talented friend who has brought out the best in numerous horses).

Best of luck and I hope you’re able to find a solution.

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I consulted with an equine nutritionist. On the upside, she works with Dr. Valberg who is obviously the guru. On the downside, she’s pretty obviously affiliated with KER (and to a lesser extent Purina) so not entirely unbiased when recommending a choice where you could get a product from KER/Purina or get a similar product elsewhere. I think Dr. Valberg is also heavily connected to KER. Doesn’t make KER (or them) bad-- but it’s possible that you could mimic the diet below using non KER/Purina products. So with that disclaimer…

-Purina Strategy GX (equal to the same amount of calories as her prior feed)
-KER MFM pellets
-KER Nano-E
-KER Nano-Q10
-1 cup chia seeds
-1/4 cup of whey isolate powder

She’s also getting the same type (timothy and grass mix) hay and in the same amounts as she was before I made the diet switch. This would have been the type of hay recommended anyway and the amount provided an appropriate amount of calories. She is turned out in a paddock with grass but not LUSH grass overnight so she also gets some grazing calories too.

The overall goal is to find a feed that is 20-30% NSC, 4-8% fat, and 12-14% CP. Supplement with amino acids, protein, and bioavailable Vitamin E and Q10.

FWIW you probably want to be sitting down when you click on the prices for those KER supplements.

There are some amazinf FB groups with really knowledgeable people. Someone shared this, which I think is a terrific resource (also courtesty of KER, see a trend here?)…

No joke! I had one of mine on KER Nano-E for a while but it is expensive. I have him on Elevate now and it’s much cheaper.

I do like KER a lot despite the price - which I was happy to pay for a long time because they are one of the very few companies that studies whether the product they’re selling actually works.

I’m sorry I missed this post when it first came out. It sounds like you have gotten some direction though, I wish you the best with your mare.

I’m trying to ride the line between dogging on them (if you’re affiliated with a company you really should disclose that BEFORE charging me a couple hundred bucks for recommending that company’s products). On the other hand, as you rightfully point out-- KER is one of the few companies investing in PSSM horses and actually trying to do studies to make sure their products work. And their products ARE good and high quality.

I don’t mind paying $$$$ for something that is proven and does work. But yeah, their supplements aren’t cheap. There are a bunch of sources for the liquid Vitamin E. This is one of the cheapest…

But given that I am already buying the pellets and that the Q-10 is hard to find in liquid form elsewhere, I might as well suck it up and pay a bit more for the Vitamin E but only have to order from one place.

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When you have a horse on 8000 IU of Vit E a day it sure adds up :laughing: I’ll check out Emcelle, thanks! I stuck with Elevate because it was one of the only Vit-Es offered at the place local to me,a and I get a discount which makes it a little more palatable.

There’s a benefit from having only one place to shop. It gets exhausting trying to coordinate the medicine cabinet some days…

I gave Equikelly a bucket of MFM pellets to try since my horse can’t tolerate the soy protein meal in them. We have to stick to whey or other source of aminos.

I hadn’t read the 20-30% NSC recommendation. What do you do with the east keeper types?

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Well that recommendation is for my mare, who isn’t an easy keeper. I’d say she’s about medium. She doesn’t get fat on air but she’s also not one you have to pour the feed into. So for her, that makes sense. The nutritionist was making a recommendation specific to her, I don’t know what she would recommend for a really easy keeper. I guess get the carbs some other way like high carb hay (oat hay, etc.)?

My guy was on 10,000IU natural vit E from Horsetech for years, in his custom supp for PSSM2 (MFM) and his muscles were like butter, per the body worker.

Vitamin E comparison chart is here as a reminder

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