Update! We found our first real shed!
I had SO plant the training antler so that I wouldn’t know where it was. The dog and I headed into the bush from a different point. She immediately led me to this monster moose shed :eek:
For reference, Paisley is 72lbs and is taller than your average lab, golden, etc.
I carried it out laughing. SO’s eyes bugged out. We headed back into the bush and promptly found the training antler.
FWIW, most often when I am training, I want to know where the odor source is so I can notice changes in behavior and reward when the dog is on source (not just close). Yes, some blind searches but not many. I want to know.
In a trial, we encounter the blind search
But nice job on the find!!! Dogs have noses like I can’t imagine!
I wouldn’t say that we do a lot of blind searches. They definitely have value though.
I spend more time finding creative ways to plant the antlers so that she can’t just follow my trail to it. Not such a problem at home since our scent is everywhere. But more of an issue doing training runs in the bush where people don’t frequent. I usually find areas with two access points so that we don’t “cross paths”.
Interesting point for sure based on your search area being significantly larger than the search areas I see in scentwork competitions. There, we don’t worry about ‘tracking’ the person setting the hide. I’ve been training with the same person for maybe 3 years. When I watch my dogs search, they aren’t following her footsteps, they’re sniffing for odor (which are essential oils which, to a dog, is a composite of many odors, not a single odor as I smell it). I’ve worked my dogs on an odor that I don’t train with at home and they’ve still found it.
I can see working in a much larger space that tracking a person to source might be something a dog would pick up on as the larger space is essentially ‘shed odor’ free. I do like the idea of hiding from a different path than you expect the dog to search. But, you might see if there is F&G/DOW K9 training near where you live. Maybe not to train with but to learn how they train their dogs to follow odor to source (I’m not necessarily thinking tracking, but ‘source’ like a shotgun shell for example) without encouraging the dog to following human footsteps; or is that just not a problem. I don’t have the experience to know.
It isn’t so much a problem as something that you don’t want the dog to learn. They need to be able to search on their own off leash without getting distracted. In competition, the handler can not be within 15 ft of the shed when the dog finds it. Training antlers and planted sheds are also routinely cleaned and handled with gloves so as not to be contaminated with human scent.
When you’re out searching for real sheds than it’s up to the team to decide how they like to search. Grid searches of bedding areas and travelling game trails being the most common. The handler should be able to identify when their dog has winded a shed. However, the goal isn’t for the dog to lead the handler to the source. The goal is for the dog to make the retrieve. Since shed hunting is also visual most dogs are very quick to follow odor to source.
I have a bunch of very ruthless Patterdale Terriers. These guys patrol the barn and dispatch rodents with glee. One day we decided to try barn hunting. I took boss bitch and she was outstanding. Within weeks she was doing Crazy eights style searches with success. THEN, she decided this was complete foolishness, went in to the ring, catalogued the hides and went and sat down in a corner. If she could have crossed her arms she would have. She had that look, “OK, I know where they are, no profit in telling you.” and she was done. She wanted to KILL them for her reward, just like she did in the barn.
Not all dogs take to Barn Hunt for that reason…the rats are ‘inaccessible’ and don’t move (well, the tube doesn’t move). I’ve volunteered at Barn Hunt trials and the rats are incredibly chill despite have large dogs grabbing the tube in their mouths.
If your dogs are food/reward motivated (other than getting prey) check into the scent work performance competitions… AKC, National Association for Canine Scent Work (NACSW) are the largest. Dogs hunt for an odor source (or sources, as one moves up the levels, as with Barn Hunt) the number of hides and complexity increases.
I have two Border Terriers… one made it to Senior in Barn Hunt before deciding that if he wouldn’t get paid he wouldn’t bother to tell me where (he’d catalog them but then he’d go visiting with the judge and the rat wrangler) the other was just overwhelmed by the environment with everyone hanging over the pen enclosures.
The scentwork competitions (at least AKC and NACSW) allow you to reward at source in a trial and limit the amount of spectators. The same search environment is used for all competitors at that level and element so competitors are not allow to watch searches unless they have already run the search or they want to watch an element or level they are not trialing at.
True, I am not and, to be honest, neither are my dogs. Having said that, scentwork offers challenging sniffing/mental questions the dog has to solve (as gawd knowns I can’t).
True, each rat I am sure has their own personal odor and yes, live rats do move (BH they really don’t).
Maybe scent-work is a game your dogs would not be challenged with but I know my terriers do enjoy doing it… they’re both catalogers and mostly ground sniffers. They’ve had to learn to sniff ‘up’ for source. Some breeds are air sniffers and, for them, need to learn to sniff closer to the ground. Last time I checked, I wouldn’t expect to see any rat or mouse in a crack in the cement
The terriers do not put their noses on the ground at all. and do not use their noses until they have seen a location where they would be likely to find an odor. When they do, they go in with digging equipment!
The GSP is an air scenting pro.
Lately they seem to have teamed up for spontaneous hunting !
Perhaps in shed hunting this is the case but for scentwork not, IMO, so much. The entire search area is full of places likely to find odor. In scentwork, dogs are strongly discouraged form disrupting the search area and articles in it so ‘digging’ is strongly discouraged.
My trainers dog is a flattie and her dog does her searching with her nose in the air (as so often the Mals and most of the retrievers).
My Borders, as well as other Borders I’ve watched search, sniff with their noses just above the ground (not on the ground but not up in the air either). Mine will often catalog what odor is in the search area and then go back to track back to source. If the search area is large, I try to discourage too much cataloging as it can eat up valuable time.
Definitely not the case for shed hunting. The dogs need to be actively using their nose the whole time they’re searching. Sheds can be anywhere, and will often be buried under the leaves (or snow). Once they’ve recognized the antler scent than they will start looking (with their eyes) for the antler as they follow their nose to the source.
My dog is a mix. She ground sniffs until she catches a whiff, then she air sniffs as she looks around for the antler.
I think maybe I wasn’t clear. My dogs, once they enter the search area, are actively sniffing (actually, depending on air flow, they’re working before we cross the start line; as soon as they are in odor)… just their noses, and not just because of height, are held closer to, but not on the ground.
The big difference appears to be that the hides are not supposed to be visible… either to the dog or the handler. My dogs have to rely on only their noses to get to source. I have to rely on my ability to read their changes in behavior to tell me when they are on (or in the case of inaccessible, reasonably close) to source.
I was referring to your response to Equibrit where you said “perhaps this is the case with shed hunting”.
Obviously with scentwork they have to be actively sniffing and working in the search area, it’s the same with shed hunting. Sheds fall off the deer at random and there’s no trail. They’re often out of sight until the dog (or human) is almost on top of them. It’s very similar to traditional scentwork until they’ve gotten to the source.
The handler should be able to read their dog since they can’t be within 15’ of the shed when the dog finds it during competition.
