Hi I am new to dressage but have been riding on my own for years. I take lessons once a week and ride 3x a week. I ride one of my trainers horses that was used for eventing in her younger years. My frustration is the shoulder in. I keep coming off the rail when I try to ride the shoulder in. When I do it correctly I can’t tell that I am even doing it right (my trainer tells me when it is right). Any pointers that will help is greatly appreciated.
Dawn
Yours is a common concern, many riders cannot FEEL the shoulder in, as it is one of the most subtle of the lateral movements.
I teach my riders, who cannot feel the shoulder in to perform the opposite shoulder in, sometimes (and incorrectly) called the shoulder-fore.
try the shoulder-in right, when tracking to the left and vice versa, and dont be concerned with accuracy of degree of bend, meaning 30 degrees, is too subtle, go for the 4 track shoulder-in left (when tracking right), you will feel the movement better then when you can begin to predictably feel the movement, start to lessen the degree of bend, thus activating only the shoulder, not the hind end. Also study diagrams of the shoulder in, my favorite is believe it or not, Sally Swifts, in her book, Centered Riding, it gives a great visual for the novice rider, Bon Chance!!
PS
Remember, because the shoulder in is subtle, think of simply Lifting, and moving the shoulders, INSIDE the track. It is more visual than physical to start, focus on the outside rein, feeling the shoulder being directed to the inside of the track, shoulders-in, haunches untouched.
if you still cannot feel it after the above exercise, perhaps lounge lessons will help, some people have a hard time, releasing INTO their seat, their butt’s are in the tack but there is too much tension to FEEL whats going on, I hope this helps. . . . -H
I’m a learner too, and I’m not sure whether this is any help to you at ALL, but the things that really helped my shoulder in (which isn’t great, but is better than it used to be) were:
I kept wanting to put my inside leg back, to keep his haunches on the rail. My inside leg has to stay in the normal girth position or else we do some weird pseudo leg yeildy thing instead.
I kept wanting to use the inside rein, which put me in a whole world of hurt.
Dropping those two habits made a big difference. I just have to keep my mind on bending him around that inside leg and controlling the shoulder, not the head or the haunches. I dunno, maybe I’m not even doing it right, but my trainer says it looks good so I’m happy 
The last thing I would want someone learning SI do to is get 4 tracks with uneven bending (too much in the neck) and hindlegs crossing. Shoulder fore is the degree of bending of a 20 m circle (2 1/2 tracks) vs shoulder in (3 tracks, a bite of a 10 m circle) vs shoulder in on four tracks (a bite of a 6 or 8 m volte).
For the OP, think you are taking the first step onto a large circle, it is very little bending. Inside leg (closer/pulsing near the girth) to outside rein, outside leg stretched down and back to control quarters. Do a circle, do some steps of SF, circle, etc. Then try it with a (good) 10 m circle, and same thing. Do not try to sustain it too long, start well, finish onto a circle, start again. Remember you look where the horse looks (onto the circle), the outside hh control the shoulder. Once started you should not need the inside rein per se. Remember even bending head to tail.
Ok so what should I be doing with my inside rein? I have been opening my inside rein to ask for a bend which is where we end up coming off the rail. Should I simply just bring my inside shoulder back?
Dawn
Hopefully one of the two trainers who have already posted will give you some hints here- SI is actually my horse’s favorite so he doesn’t require much finesse as long as I don’t totally botch it. But I have been watching some videos this week as it has been too rainy to ride, and these quotes stand out, as they are also things I hear often from my trainer.
Inside rein is only to ask for flexion.
If you’re using the inside rein for bend, you’re riding front to back.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;3743327]
The last thing I would want someone learning SI do to is get 4 tracks with uneven bending (too much in the neck) and hindlegs crossing. Shoulder fore is the degree of bending of a 20 m circle (2 1/2 tracks) vs shoulder in (3 tracks, a bite of a 10 m circle) vs shoulder in on four tracks (a bite of a 6 or 8 m volte).
For the OP, think you are taking the first step onto a large circle, it is very little bending. Inside leg (closer/pulsing near the girth) to outside rein, outside leg stretched down and back to control quarters. Do a circle, do some steps of SF, circle, etc. Then try it with a (good) 10 m circle, and same thing. Do not try to sustain it too long, start well, finish onto a circle, start again. Remember you look where the horse looks (onto the circle), the outside hh control the shoulder. Once started you should not need the inside rein per se. Remember even bending head to tail.[/QUOTE]
[edit]
First, the degree of bend for the 4 track shoulder in, thus the DEFINITION is NOT an UNEVEN bend at all, yet a bend, easily executed from the leg and hand to an UNDETERMINED degree, such as is the will of the rider, to affect!!!
In fact NO bending of the neck is required for the most NOVICE of riders to execute the 4 track SI.
Now Shoulder fore, by definition is a 4 TRACK movement!!
The focus is on FLEXION of the poll, and very little to any lateral movement of the spine, it is used as a supplying exercise and predecessor to the SI for horses that are tense and or unyeilding.
And by your definition [edit]
How does a horse, perform a Half track?
perhaps you are confused with the HALF-Step, a completely different creature!
[edit]. -H
As well, asking a novice rider to peform 10m circles at the SI is irresponsible, you have no idea the abilities of her mount, an effort of that magnitude could very well be dangerous, a GP horse, on a good day would rear from much less!
Too much impulsion for the level of skill, if she cant feel the SI, she cannot feel the level of impulsion needed to execute one on a 10m circle!
And “even bending from head to tail” for the SI produces a 4 track SI!, a SI, as defined by the USEF DOES NOT INVOLVE THE HIND END thus, an “EVEN BEND” would produce a leg yeild, or a 4 track shoulder-in, . . .one and the same! -H
How much bend IS there supposed to be on SI? I thought there was supposed to be very little neck bend, with all the bend in the body.
I was noticing watching Sylvia Loch, and she uses a lot of 10m circles when learning SI too. I was surprised- I find the 10m circle quite a bit more difficult than the SI!
look here http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116
read all the links especailly this one
has diagram of how to pefrom and where you should be
http://www.eques.com.au/training/june/forward.htm
really, Heath, this outburst against ideayoda is totally unwarranted - and unprovoked. I’ve always found her advice to be very good and very professional. In fact, for my money I think she’s one of the most knowledgeable people on this board.
And although I have no idea who she is in real life, I’m pretty sure she didn’t have to google “half-track” to give her answer 
I assume half-track means the horse covers about half of its inside footprint with the outside hoof?
[QUOTE=mheathcurry;3743417]
[edit]
First, the degree of bend for the 4 track shoulder in, thus the DEFINITION is NOT an UNEVEN bend at all, yet a bend, easily executed from the leg and hand to an UNDETERMINED degree, such as is the will of the rider, to affect!!!
In fact NO bending of the neck is required for the most NOVICE of riders to execute the 4 track SI.
Now Shoulder fore, by definition is a 4 TRACK movement!!
The focus is on FLEXION of the poll, and very little to any lateral movement of the spine, it is used as a supplying exercise and predecessor to the SI for horses that are tense and or unyeilding.
And by your definition ( which I am sure you Googled, perhaps Wiekepedia?)
How does a horse, perform a Half track?
perhaps you are confused with the HALF-Step, a completely different creature!
This person wants answers, not google searches from unqualified “trainers” as the OP was addressed to “Trainers” . . . -H
As well, asking a novice rider to peform 10m circles at the SI is irresponsible, you have no idea the abilities of her mount, an effort of that magnitude could very well be dangerous, a GP horse, on a good day would rear from much less!
Too much impulsion for the level of skill, if she cant feel the SI, she cannot feel the level of impulsion needed to execute one on a 10m circle!
And “even bending from head to tail” for the SI produces a 4 track SI!, a SI, as defined by the USEF DOES NOT INVOLVE THE HIND END thus, an “EVEN BEND” would produce a leg yeild, or a 4 track shoulder-in, . . .one and the same! -H[/QUOTE]
excuse me in regards to ideayoda but, slc2 isnt a trianer either, and nor is ambrey they are both noivce riders my point is everyone that knows how to perform the SI will have a say its a bb and people will speak you cant stop a topic
and your not this or that, or you cant answer this and that becuase your not one
how do you know you dont------ its a bb and everyone is entitled to there opnions on any topic
[QUOTE=goeslikestink;3743496]
excuse me in regards to ideayoda but, slc2 isnt a trianer either, and nor is ambrey they are both noivce riders my point is everyone that knows how to perform the SI will have a say its a bb and people will speak you cant stop a topic
and your not this or that, or you cant answer this and that becuase your not one
how do you know you dont------ its a bb and everyone is entitled to there opnions on any topic[/QUOTE]
I was quite honest that I’m a learner, not a trainer
Heath, I know you got kind of a violent intro to the board, but ideayoda isn’t one of the… what was the term you used? bitch squad? She is a trainer and teacher, and whether or not you agree with her, others will find her input valuable.
She’s always been extremely kind and gone out of her way to help when I had questions, so I’d hate to see her discouraged from posting, just like I’d hate to see you discouraged from posting your opinions on such a topic.
I think it’s wonderful when trainers are willing to take out the time to give input on we lowly newbies’ problems, but you’ll find that there are several here and often their points of view are very different. I personally really like seeing the different viewpoints- it’s like looking at an dressage in 3 dimensions rather than just one. I also like reading posts from people who are learning and going through the same things I am. It’s all part of the forum experience 
mheathcurry, ideayoda has been a very well known dressage judge for many, many years. She probably won’t knock points off your test the next time you ride for her, I don’t think she’s like that, but you might think a little before you tell a licensed dressage judge that their ‘ignorance is disgusting’.
Our licensed dressage judges have gone through a fairly extensive program in order to get where they are, only a few remain who slipped in when it was easy. I have a lot of respect for the experience of judging as well as our current process of licensing and training judges. I agree it doesn’t necessarily mean a judge can always write a perfect post on an internet bulletin board that everyone will like every word of, but it DOES mean that they have some knowledge and that deserves some respect.
One day you might NOT be attacking this particular judge, but someone who is not quite so self-controlled and might treat you a little differently. Hot headed, self aggrandizing talk meant to pull in customers and manipulate gullible organization heads, used to be the norm in the dressage community; it no longer works. Dressage is maturing as a sport and people who conduct themselves as you do in public are being left behind…WAY behind.
I dare say calling SOME in the dressage world ‘disgustingly ignorant’ would prevent you from getting on any developing horse or rider list, any long list, or any short list, or in fact, ever really getting anywhere in this business. There is such a thing as displaying that you can get along with others in an organization, as showing ‘diplomacy’ where you say, ‘I respectfully disagree’ or ‘I don’t agree with that, here’s why’, or ‘I’d like to expand or clarify the above’, or ‘I often tell my students’. As a professional, you are expected, at some point, to actually conduct yourself like a professional in public.
You have posted a great deal about how you are getting picked on here. I would suggest you consider how, for example, Jane Savoie posts here, or Lendon Gray, or other well recognized, established dressage trainers who have ridden internationally and have been very successful, post here. They are NEVER defensive, they are NEVER involved in personal arguments or stalking individuals as you think you can do with impugnity, they NEVER argue about ANYTHING, they NEVER create alters who pipe up with how great they are, as you have done, and most importantly of all, they don’t get picked on by anyone here. Try to work out why. It’s because of how they behave when they post here.
There is such a thing as ‘diplomacy’ where you say, ‘I respectfully disagree’ or ‘I don’t agree with that, here’s why’, or ‘I’d like to expand or clarify the above’, or ‘I often tell my students’. As a professional, you are expected, at some point, to actually conduct yourself like a professional in public.
Great. A lesson on diplomacy from slc!:lol:
To the original poster:
Your problem with the shoulder in is very common, and I’m very sure that your riding instructor will, over time, probably in 1-2 lessons, help you correct your aids so you are more effective and can get the horse to shoulder in.
The MOST important thing for YOU to do, is to listen to your instructor, and to RELAX. JUST RELAX. Don’t go running to dozens of different people asking for ‘help’ - you will get 1000 answers if you ask 1000 people, mostly just arguments on ridiculous points that are more about how individuals posting on the bb for a long time don’t like each other than anything else, is picking at how they word something rather than any real substance, and none of them can see you, your horse, or know you as well as your instructor does. You don’t need help, this is just a normal thing and a part of learning dressage. So relax! I assume you have some good reason for choosing the instructor you choose - that he or she has some experience, some skill and some ability to teach. A shoulder in is NOT a complicated, advanced movement, and instructors should know how to teach it. It is NOT a big deal.
NOW. These things take time. Don’t come running here to beg for help if something doesn’t work out instantly in your lesson. All you will get is a lot of confusion. Just do this one thing - RELAX and Give it time. Learning dressage is all about being patient with the horse, with the instructor, and most of all - YOURSELF.
To try and help you, here are some general comments and to make some sort of sense of what’s been said here, and to clarify and simplify it.
First, there are TWO parts of shoulder in. One. Angle. Two. Bend.
The angle is how much the horse’s shoulders are ‘in off the track’.
The bend is how much he is bent through his body. Hopefully, it is an EVEN bend, with the same amount of bend through the neck and most of the spine. If you looked down on the horse from above, you’d want to see an EVEN bend along his WHOLE spine, from his ears to his tail*. He would look just like a train following a smooth, slight curve on a rail road track.
That is USUALLY emphasized if you’re using too much inside rein, so there’s a big bend in the neck and none in the horse’s body. It can happen because your outside rein is too loose, so there’s nothing keeping the horse’s neck from bending too much.
For MANY people, shoulder in is the first time they find out they don’t use their outside rein enough. Especially if they ride school horses, the school horses may circle for them ‘by cue’ rather than by being ‘ridden around the circle’ with the rider using both reins correctly. The horse may simply cruise around and do a nice circle without the rider using his aids properly. When he shoulder ins, then he finds out, ‘oh gee, i wasn’t really making my circles happen’. Often, he starts doing much better circles BECAUSE he struggles for a bit with shoulder in. The shoulder in quickly improves as he starts really circling properly.
Second, the shoulder in is really just a circle. Yep. The aids are the same.
The truth however is, you don’t need to worry a single bit about how much ‘angle’ and how much ‘bend’ you have at first! Don’t make it complicated! Just see if you can bring the shoulders off the track a little bit, and don’t even worry about it!
We NEVER expect horses to burst forth instantly doing something perfectly, so don’t worry about ANY of this junk while riding! Just get a feel and try to get a little angle, a little bend, and it’s not a big deal if you come off the track a little, it just means you need to be using more inside leg, just try that next time you come down the long side.
You can also make a circle in the corner, and then use that circle to help you make the ‘bend’ and the ‘angle’ easier to get. Just do 1-2 steps, NOT a whole long side (!!!) and just get a feel for it!
Don’t pretzel yourself up or twist. If there’s no reaction to your inside leg, give a little tap with your whip behind your inside leg.
There is always a way to fix anything that comes up, and any mistake you make is NOT A BIG DEAL!!!
If you are doing circles correctly, you can do a shoulder in. You DO need to ‘add’ a little of this and a little of that. You may feel, especially at first, like you need more outside rein and inside leg than you do when doing a circle. You can almost think of the ‘inside leg keeping the horse on the track’, and the outside rein ‘moving his shoulders in off the track’.
If you are riding a lesson horse, you may be in the situation where the horse knows the shoulder in and you don’t. Getting the shoulder in out of a school horse is not very often about how subtly you breathe or meditate on your ‘center’ or how physically fit your core is, or how ‘bonded’ you are, or anything else. Very often it is just about firmly using your outside rein and being more firm using your inside leg and getting a reaction to it. REMEMBER, NO HORSE IS A CHINA DOLL, IT’S OK FOR YOU TO MOVE YOUR LEGS, USE YOUR REINS, and TRY TO GET THE HORSE TO REACT TO YOU. AND IT’S OK TO MAKE A MISTAKE! So many people come here and after the lectures they get, they are paralyzed up there in the saddle, totally confused and afraid to move a muscle! Just try something, relax, and just do what your instructor says and don’t be afraid to move or use your leg or rein!
And to be perfectly honest, it’s not that different teaching a youngster that doesn’t know shoulder in at all! It’s just not that hard. After listening to a lot of people you might think it’s akin to constructing a bionic human being or inventing a cure for cancer!
Think of it as ‘all the aids are the same’. Simplify it in your mind, clear your mind, listen to your instructor, and just try! One of the best ways to do this is to plan to sit and watch a really good trainer teach some youngsters shoulder in. It is just not a big deal, and when you watch someone do it over and over and over with a young horse, and see how NOT a big deal it is, it stops seeming like a big deal.
Third. There are TWO ways to get a ‘shoulder in on 4 tracks’. One is to have very little angle, the other is to have a very large angle. In the posts above, people got so hot under the collar they didn’t consider that.
A ‘shoulder in on four tracks’ can be made by making a very, very slight angle and bend, and can be called a ‘shoulder fore’. It is really a ‘tiny shoulder in’, and only different in that the angle and bend are less. As long as there is some bend, it is a tiny shoulder in.
A ‘shoulder in on four tracks’ due to a much bigger angle, is part of a more technical debate that you don’t even want to crack the lid on or think about at this point. This is the kind of thing readers of old dressage books love to argue about, and it is really irrelevant to the question of ‘I can’t stay on the track when I do shoulder in’. The debate is, can a horse with a huge angle to the wall, really bend the appropriate amount, and do something called a shoulder in. There are some schools of dressage that say yes, and some that say no. The OFFICIAL WORD IN THE RULES, BOTH NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL is NO. A shoulder in is done on a MODEST angle, with the horse’s feet making THREE tracks in the sand. Since the shoulder moves INWARD, the outside front foot and the inside hind leg make one track in the sand. THAT is what you’re going for, and THAT IS HARD ENOUGH!
*The rear part of the horse’s spine is not very flexible. There, the bend is created by how he is a little flexible in the pelvis and hind quarter joints.
Ugh.
I did not seen anything in ideayoda’s post that gave any indication that she thought the 4 track shoulder-in was supposed to have an uneven bend.
The leg yield does NOT have a bend in the body, only a slight bend in the neck.
I learned those movements from “I” level judges, considered some of the best.
Personally, I would not want to ride under M.Heath since he seems to like to complicate the movements more than he seems to want to help clarify them. That’s just a pet peeve of mine.
Edit to ad: the personal denegrading attacks aren’t too appealing either.
“A lesson on diplomacy from slc”
Actually, the most undiplomatic person would probably be in a very good position to teach the lesson.
Your ignorance (of social convention and manners) is disgusting! I’m not even sure you have anything real to offer as far as training goes anymore. Maybe you do but it gets lost in the condescending muck you post. My dear, you have a lot to learn about behavior if you wish for anyone here to take you seriously and not respond in kind to your attitude.
THe one you disqualify as being a “trainer” as asked for is a bigger name, with more skills than you appear to have. Well I take that back, you have just as big a name right now but it’s not at all in a good way. If you’d read awhile before descending from on high, you would know who the google trainers are and it’s not ideoyoda!
Please return to the orginal topic and we’ll address things from here.
Thanks,
Mod 1
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