Kathy?
“NO bending of the neck is required for the most NOVICE of riders to execute the 4 track SI.”
Summary:
Incorrect.
“As well, asking a novice rider to peform 10m circles at the SI is irresponsible, you have no idea the abilities of her mount, an effort of that magnitude could very well be dangerous,”
I haven’t met any dressage trainers yet who would say so, when the horse is at the point where he is ready to start shoulder in, he is able to do 10 m circles, and generally, the same goes for the rider on the school horse.
Most trainers have the student wait until the horse and or rider is reliable on both hands doing 10 m circles. In fact, there are those who suggest the degree of bend is the same for shoulder in and 10 m circles. I’d say it’s eventually about the same.
I haven’t yet had any trouble with my young horses, asking them to shoulder in when they are able to do 10 m circles, or combining shoulder in and circling.
“a GP horse, on a good day would rear from much less!”
Most GP horses do not rear when asked to do a 10 m circle, shoulder in, or shoulder in on a 10 meter circle. If you are having that problem, you might be doing something a little wrong. I haven’t ridden or even seen any GP horses that had any problem doing either unless they were trained incorrectly.
“Too much impulsion for the level of skill,”
Impulsion as defined does not exist at this point, activity, a forward, marching gait, energetic movement, is not actually the same as impulsion.
Further, I doubt that a low level of skill is capable of producing ANY impulsion - ever. Excitement, yes, loss of balance, yes, speed, yes, not impulsion.
Too, nothing in the posts suggested, and nothing in dressage, suggests that somehow, doing a shoulder in, a 10 m circle, or a 10 m circle in shoulder in, would necessarily be connected with ‘too much impulsion’.
“if she cant feel the SI, she cannot feel the level of impulsion needed to execute one on a 10m circle!”
I read post after post that suggested circling BEFORE the shoulder in attempt, which is a very common advice from very good dressage trainers, a very common exercise and hardly one I’d consider death defying.
I did it yesterday on a young horse, and somehow survived! Film at 11. Including shoulder in on the circles.
Not a big deal. No more dangerous than sticking one’s foot in the stirrup and landing one’s rear in the saddle.
“And “even bending from head to tail” for the SI produces a 4 track SI!”
Incorrect.
“, a SI, as defined by the USEF DOES NOT INVOLVE THE HIND END thus, an “EVEN BEND” would produce a leg yeild, or a 4 track shoulder-in, . . .one and the same!”
Not really, but in any case, probably irrelevant to the rider saying ‘My horsey comes off the track when I do a shoulder in’, where the answer is exactly the same and just as simple as ‘my horsey comes off the track when I ride along on the track’.
The shoulder in involves a bend through the body, and keeping the hind quarters on the track.
THe shoulder in is often described in the classical works as being ‘like the start of a circle’, and the haunches in is often described as being ‘like the end of a circle’, and that’s quite true. The hnd quarters stay on the ‘line of travel’ because they are the end of the curving line.
No, there is no EXTREME bend inward of the hind legs and they don’t bend in off the line of travel; the curve of then entire body is a gentle and consistent one that matches the angle, that winds up with the hind legs on the track; this is precisely why some argue an extreme bend and angle is not possible in the shoulder in because the horse’s body has limitations as to how far it all can bend.
Details:
It suggests you would see the Spanish Riding School Lipizanners straight when they are ‘in position’, which they use all through training, and during which they are not without some bend.
The lesser forms of shoulderin do have value for the horse and rider that are progressing. The reason for them is not at all to do something with no bend, but to allow for a starting form of shoulder in that avoids a difficult issue in classical dressage - teaching lateral work without losing the rhythm, which for the more advanced trainer, really trumps going out there and immediately wrestling a lot of angle out of a youngster.
It also allows for a ‘straightening’ position that is used throughout training not to perform in a lower level test but to straighten the horse all thru its training, even more advanced work. The position, position fore, shoulder fore, never actually stop being used; they become even more important, and are not discarded after the novice stage of either horse or rider.
Some bending is present in all forms of shoulder in. That is what makes them shoulder in. Bend plus angle. There is bend in ‘position’, ‘position fore’, ‘shoulder fore’ and ‘shoulder in’, that is all the forms of shoulder in.
It is less bend, and it may be hard for some people to see the lesser amounts of bend in position, position fore, shoulder fore, or that to start with, many novices are doing little more than a leg yield with a little bend in the neck by the jaw. That’s no crime, in fact, it’s pretty much expected at first, and develops with time.
What defines shoulder in is angle plus bend. There is MORE bend as you move closer to shoulder in - starting with position, position fore, shoulder fore, and finally shoulder in. To a degree, it is the bend itself that creates the angle.
Leg yield is leg yield because the neck is straight or bent only in the neck and the body is not bending. One can put more or less bend in the neck, and still only have it be a leg yield. The key is that in leg yield the body (spine behind the shoulders) is straight.
The rearmost part of the horse’s spine is quite stiff, especially where it is surrounded by the pelvis, but the horse in effect aligns his hind quarters with the bend because of flexibility in the joints of his hind legs. This has been very firmly established and overhead pictures from Harry Boldt’s ‘The Dressage Horse’ clearly show a horse able to follow a bend with his hind quarters.
He does ‘track’ on the curved line because of flexibility that is gradually created in his hind quarters, and he does actually position his footfalls to follow a bending line correctly. The horse can also, quite markedly, put his hind legs down to one side, so that he avoids taking weight with one hind leg, and that’s something a more advanced trainer works on, is getting the hind legs put down more toward the horse’s midline. That means the correctly bent horse is developing flexibility in his pelvis, hind leg joints and spine, not merely throwing his hind legs around to make a curving line of footfalls.
He can also to quite a degree bend downward behind, so the root of his tail drops with each stride. And encouraging him to develop that flexibility helps him to develop more flexibility in his hind quarters in general.
A rider can and does feel when the horse is too stiff behind the saddle, and there is various very effective ‘dressage therapy’ for the horse that is stiff behind the saddle. I can feel the difference, so I am sure anyone else can. Behind the saddle is in fact aside from the neck, the most flexible part of the spine. It is where the spine is surrounded by the pelvis that the spine is limited, and that doesn’t prevent correct classical bending through the entire length of the animal to 6 meter curve…eventually…with lots of training.
When you finally get the perfect SI, be sure and share how you did it! When you figure out the leg yield, let me know, that’s been my bugaboo 
