Hummmmmmm, very few ppl would know the SLC/Slick association…
If people dont want to read SLC’s posts, then dont, but everyone gets theirself in an uproar over and opinion of someone else, who in the long run, has NO impact on your life.
Why is that so?
It’s been awhile since I have ridden SI - I will say SI is my least favorite thing to do - but alas - probably the most valuable for training and the horse - I guess as well - rider.
Before I muck this up - let me confirm - SI left the inside rein is the left rein, right?
Again - it has been awhile. But I have a point: SI-L vs SI-R - it must have been SI-L that I had the most difficulty with - ie right rein as outside rein - which seemingly I had little contact/connection with - and fell into the trap of over-using the inside rein for that SI. No amount of inside leg would help. I remember riding with CdeK - attempting this SI - to his despair - “why do you keep using the inside rein”? Whatever - it was not going to happen - not with me as rider, anyway. I had nothing in outside rein - and seemingly could not let go of the inside (left) rein. Just awful.
What is one to do to improve this?
Another thought/question: where the rider “looks” during SI. Perhaps this was part of my downfall - thinking about it now. I think I was taught/read to keep my head facing to the inside - better said - with the horse ( in correct bend - as if) not to be looking down the track ie eg SI on the long side - not to be looking at the upcoming corner - but more across. Dang - cannot explain. But what is correct?
Also - one should pulse with the inside leg - ie “sweeping” the horses inside hind “under” - to time when that leg is just leaving the ground, right? (You see - I am gearing up to have another go at this).
I took what Ideayoda wrote to mean to use the 10m circle to develop the SI, not to actually DO SI on the 10m circle.
Which is exactly my advice for the OP. The minute your horse starts to come off the rail, go right onto a 10m circle. Use that circle to get the horse really bending around your leg and moving from your inside leg into the outside rein. Make sure you can check for self carriage with the inside rein. When the horse is properly on the outside rein on the 10m circle, go one or two steps on the 10m circle again, but then move down the long side of the arena in SI. The minute you lose the quality of the SI in any way (even if it has only been a few steps), go back to the 10m circle and repeat.
[quote=mheathcurry;3743417]a GP horse, on a good day would rear from much less!
[/quote]
What a strange statement! Not true of any well trained horse, at any level.
[quote=mheathcurry;3743417]And “even bending from head to tail” for the SI produces a 4 track SI
[/quote]
Wrong. Bend in the body can be even from nose to tail whether the horse is on 2, 3, or 4 tracks.
I admit that I need to watch the thing a few more times to understand it, but the Sylvia Loch vid I am doing right now starts the SI off the 10m circle, and does encourage some SI/HI on the circle- especially HI, but I thought she did SI on the circle too.
And she also suggested full 4-track SI as an exercise.
Just sayin’, I don’t think ideayoda invented the idea 
Of course it can be done. But my point is that that is not what Ideayoda was saying, and mheathcurry said it was.
It was HC who suggested 4 track shoulder in, which is excessive angle for a beginner (since 4 tracks is for an upper level horse). I was trying to point out the progressivity of the sf/si/si on 4 tracks. A beginner should aim for very little angle and ALWAYS even bending, they will likely error, too much /too little until they learn control of the shoulders. But to suggest 4 track, let alone counter shoulder in (where hte shoulders would not be mobilized) is a questionable methodology for teaching SI to a beginner imho, and what I was trying to point out.
[QUOTE=grayarabs;3744605]
It’s been awhile since I have ridden SI - I will say SI is my least favorite thing to do - but alas - probably the most valuable for training and the horse - I guess as well - rider.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I struggled with SI for quite some time. One of the key ways I fixed it was making sure the horse is 100% off the inside rein, if you are hanging onto it, even a bit, you get stiffness through the jaw/poll, then your bend goes haywire, often get a head tilt on and hay presto - you are leg yielding along the wall.
Someone has posted earlier about making sure you have the ability to perform a 10m circle with the horse truly in the outside rein and off the inside leg, I believe this to be correct.
Another thing that helped me is putting my outside leg back to control the haunches. This stops them from swinging on an angle, and therefore leg yielding along the wall again.
Inside leg goes on, keeping the bend, and keeping the horse in the outside rein, outside leg goes back just a fraction to prevent the horse from slipping out through its quarters, a favorite evasion of my current horse particularly when SI-ing up the center line :no:
Don’t forget, practicing the turn on the forehand helps in establishing the aids so that horse and rider understand that they are communicating about the same thing.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3744196]
That’s so sad to hear. There are so many great people on this board,[edit]
I’m glad you got some good stuff 
When you finally get the perfect SI, be sure and share how you did it! When you figure out the leg yield, let me know, that’s been my bugaboo ;)[/QUOTE]
Well, if you spent less time riding your keyboard and more time riding your horse, you might have an easier time of it. Especially if you work with an instructor and didn’t just rely on videos off YouBoob.
And also to add, if she is working on SI, then more than likely she is workng 10m circles, since the SI, 10m, etc is all 2nd level work.
Do you think Heath meant shoulder in ON the circle?? Not as in preperation for the bend?
Not taking up for the things he said to Paula, but mabe miscommunication that got out of hand??
I see a lot of upper level trainer warm up the walk work doing that to get a hores aware of his/her hind end too.
Going to pipe up meekly:
I have a young WB who is very caught up in his right shoulder following a suspensory injury. He’s basically laterally imbalanced and, as a result, “unsound”. I find that working him in leg yield and SI at the walk, at the start of any session, loosens up that shoulder and he comes sound (yes, he has been evaluated by vet and chiro, and this is just a case of working that shoulder to strengthen the muscle, he’s been cleared otherwise).
Because of his physical problems, I met resistance in the SI at first, and found that TOF was a nice way to “set him up” for it at the walk, and the 10m circle works wonders for getting the SI at the trot.
We’re now doing SI at trot on both reins, and he’s coming straighter and sounder by the day BUT I have to be really careful to make sure I sit straight. A crooked horse will make you want to sit crooked, and SI is one of those movements which makes me want to collapse my hip, so I think “tall” and watch the direction of travel, not the direction of bend.
The other thing I’ve noticed is that he goes better when I leave him alone in the SI. A gentle nudge of the outside leg to keep the impulsion occasionally, and just support from the inside leg. If I use too much inside leg, he is apt to want to drop the outside shoulder and move out, particularly when we do SI right (his weak side). My TB needs constant nudges from the inside leg to keep the bend (he can be a bit of a plank), whereas my husband’s TB just needed to be “put” into SI position and he would keep it til you asked him to straighten, so you need to work out how much application of the aids your horse needs from you. I’m presuming each horse is slightly different?
Ideayoda - I liked your post. Thanks.
But working on and able to do effectively aren’t the same thing. We can do a passable SI at walk and trot, but the 10m circle is still hard (I tend to unbalance him). I certainly wouldn’t be combining the two at this point in my training
But that is why, as learners, we have to be our own filters for information. The OP might be different, but I wouldn’t try something new like that without discussing it with my trainer- he’s the one who has to fix my horse when I break him, so he gets a say
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3745691]
Don’t forget, practicing the turn on the forehand helps in establishing the aids so that horse and rider understand that they are communicating about the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Yes we had TOF and TOH pretty much down before we attempted SI. It made it a lot easier.
As well, asking a novice rider to peform 10m circles at the SI is irresponsible, you have no idea the abilities of her mount, an effort of that magnitude could very well be dangerous, a GP horse, on a good day would rear from much less!
I think folks should all take a DEEP BREATH!~
Ideayoda was, I think, not suggesting a SI ON a 10m circle but for starting work down the long side and then finishing on a 10m circle which I do alot with my guy and have found it to be very beneficial.
OP- the other thing I had to adjust was how much preparation I went into the SI with. I learnt that for my guy who’s 5 I have to give him several strides of prep (ie HH etc) before asking for SI and this made a HUGE difference for him
Once again, HC suggrested doing 4 track counter shoulder in. I think what he meant was shoulder fore (which is called 2 1/2 tracks…when viewed from the front the inside hind can be seen between the forelegs (rather than behind the outside fore a la s.i…so perhaps to some that is four tracks…although it is considered less than two and 1/2).
Obviously one does not start s.i. by doing it ON a circle, but sf is the first step onto (a bite of) a 20 m circle, s.i. in the first step of a 10 m circle, and so on. Simply take the first step (not stride) onto the circle, and then keep the horse in front of the inside leg. A couple of strides, circle and restart.
Oh, thank you! I was getting kind of increasingly confused by that, as I’d never heard the shoulder fore called 4 track before!
One thing about these movements, is when training a horse to do them, I call them micro movements. You ask for what I call a baby SI, I mean the outside shoulder HARDLY off the track for 2 to 4 strides… and praise the hell out of the horse, make them think they are horse king and each week build on that. The horse has to understand what you want before he can preform it.
Literally do it inch by inch, little by little. You can expect a new horse to do a SI dn the whole long side. Even in 2nd/1 the SI are only from what? V to B and E to M?? Not far at all…
Most horses WANT to please but you cant overface them. Overfacing them is what causes them to shut down mentally, so keep it active, fun and ALWAYS rewarding. They have to suceed each ride, dont overface them.
Also, try to get ahold of Kyra Kyrklunds vidoes on lateral movements, that is really good to watch and understand.
Dont worry, its frustrating… each level you go up, you untack wondering why the hell you put yourself though this misery. Then one day you realize its not about YOU, its about the horse and strengthing him, and THEN it will start making sense.
One thing about these movements, is when training a horse to do them, I call them micro movements. You ask for what I call a baby SI, I mean the outside shoulder HARDLY off the track for 2 to 4 strides… and praise the hell out of the horse, make them think they are horse king and each week build on that. The horse has to understand what you want before he can preform it
This is a great reminder! Sometimes we think they should just be able to understand and do it when we really do need to go back and break it down into baby steps.
It took my guy a good month to really get the concept of SI and HI and now he understands we can start refining it.
OP- I’m a newbie myself, with about a year of serious work behind me. I’d done shoulder-in before that, but my schoolmaster gave me a completely different (and more correct) experience.
I won’t address bend, tracks, etc., but I can tell you about what my mare makes me feel when we’re doing SI. Maybe it will help:
Horse balanced and on my outside rein, turn my torso at the spine as I would on circle, pick her shoulders off the track. Keep my hips relaxed, allowing my seat to follow her hind legs (we’re in sitting trot), her inside leg steps under her belly–my inside leg pushes with her to create more energy (I like to think of my inside leg as her cheerleader, encouraging her to step stronger). As she steps under with her inside hind, she pushes my outside hip forward–again, my hips go with her, so I don’t block her energy (you know what it’s like to body surf and let your body go with the waves?). All that power hits my outside aids (a little squeeze of my fingers and my leg like a padded post) and shoots out of her shoulder.
It took me a while to really get it. (On my young horse, I tended to bend his neck too much or drag him off the rail.) But once the feeling is there, it’s awsome!
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