In the video the horse’s hind legs are crossing so whether or not you want to call it a shoulder in or not, it’s not achieving one of the main goals of a shoulder in–to help with collection. It is no longer a collecting exercise in this case and so why bother? Just do a leg yield in that case (which IMO is what it is in the video).
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Agree. The video backs up what many people say these days - that a horse can’t do a correct shoulder in, with a correct bend, on 4 tracks. The horse in the video isn’t bending through the body correctly, it’s more neck. He has angle, but insufficient bend in the body for the angle.
He says Steinbrecht invented shoulder fore (3 tracks) and de la Gueriniere invented shoulder in (4 tracks) and that calling Steinbrecht’s 3 track movement a ‘shoulder in’ is ‘rubbish’ and it ‘makes him really angry’.
Not everyone agrees with him.
Some say the term ‘shoulder in’ in the past, just meant ‘shoulders are in off the track’(the term is epaule en dedans, so literally), and didn’t in practice even if it did in print, actually have equal angle and bend, as the 3 track shoulder in we do today, does.
For me, that makes sense. Even a smaller horse of the past, would have a limitation as to how much he could bend his spine. The descriptions I have read in older books as well as the drawings and the description of the use of the seat, leg and rein, do make me think that there was less emphasis on the bend in the body, and more on angle.
I have Steibrecht’s book. He doesn’t refer to a 3 track shoulder in as shoulder fore. But I think the argument is stronger if you don’t read Steibrecht.
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look here at link http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116
and go to 1st page link 6
it show a clear diagram of the schoulder in
3 or 4 track shoulder-in?
Shoulder-in was developed by the Duke of Newcastle who rode it on a circle the disadvantage of which is that it would remain on it’s forehand. 100 years later la Gueriniere, while giving due credit to Newcastle, brought the movement out onto a straight line thereby taking the weight off the forehand. Parrocel’s diagrams,one of which appears in this thread, indicates that the movement was ridden on 4 tracks.
If we put competitive riding to the side whether one rides a 3 or 4 track movement will depend upon which direction it is desired the training to proceed in. For instance if we are intent upon overcoming a left hollow side on a horse (to work on straightness) we should ride right 4 track shoulder-in to obtain as much bend as possible but with a reduced angle. In the same horse we should ride left shoulder-in on 3 tracks with less bend but more angle. It depends what you want to achieve by riding this gymnastic.
I don’t compete,as others do on this board, but if in a competition it’s wiser to ride 3 track shoulder-in on both reins even if one’s horse is limber enough to ride 4 tracks on one rein. It’s best to stay away from 4 track movements in competition as I don’t think many modern judges understand the gymnastic.
The use of the rider’s weight aid in this movement whether ridden on straight lines or circles is fodder for another thread.
Understanding how to ride shoulder-in is best understood if you ride it. Best on a horse who knows how to do it. With a good instructor.
You can intellectuallize it best if you videotape yourself. I get myself videotaped in all clinics and all competitions. i watch the video in full after the ride and I watch the tests with the scoresheets in hand. You can have your friend videotape you if you don’t want to pay someone.
Don’t get caught up in theory - you have to execute it with your body. You have to learn to RIDE it and that is done in the saddle and ideally on a horse who can give it to you if you ask correctly.
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[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4650707]
btw., SI predates either rule book:lol:La Guérinière is credited with “inventing” the shoulder in; My reading knowledge of French is too poor to know which number of tracks he ascribed to; does anyone know?
[/QUOTE]
All one needs to do is to look at the pictures…the little hoofprints tell the story.
http://www.hoofprintstudio.com/store/avactis-images/pimage_361.jpg
This print is almost identical to the one in Gueriniere’s book. Any current edition of Gueriniere’s Ecole de Cavalerie can be read in English. Xenophon Press has a nice small edition.
Smithywess is correct that the Duke of Newcastle practiced the movement in a circle, but Gueriniere’s genius was to understand that the movement on the straight line required the horse shift its balance. The quote below is from that edition (p.66) of Ecole de Cavalerie for executing the shoulder in:
Thus once the horse has learned to trot freely in both directions on the circle and on the straight line…it is then necessary to take him at a slow and slightly collected walk along the wall and place him such that his haunches make one line and his shoulders make another…and when he has assumed this oblique and circular posture, one must make him move forward along the wall while aiding him with the inside rein and leg he cannot go foreward in this posture without stepping over the front inside leg over the outside and similarly, the inside hind leg over the outside. This is easily seen in the figure of the shoulder-in…and the diagram of the same lesson, which will make this still more visible
Sounds like a 4-track shoulder-in, in the words of the inventor.
But, since the competition rules say the shoulder-in is 3-tracks, then show it in 3 tracks. The world is not “either - or” it is “both” and both definitions are correct.
Theory is the backbone of knowledge. Edwards Deming (my hero) said “Experience by itself teaches us nothing.” Deming disagreed with the philosophy of “experience is the best teacher” and preached that one needs to interpret an observation within the context of the framework of a system of theory. The old books give us context for the evolution of the training of the horse. They are fascinating reading.
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Great comments and an interesting read.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;4651790]
All one needs to do is to look at the pictures…the little hoofprints tell the story.
http://www.hoofprintstudio.com/store/avactis-images/pimage_361.jpg
This print is almost identical to the one in Gueriniere’s book. Any current edition of Gueriniere’s Ecole de Cavalerie can be read in English. Xenophon Press has a nice small edition.
Smithywess is correct that the Duke of Newcastle practiced the movement in a circle, but Gueriniere’s genius was to understand that the movement on the straight line required the horse shift its balance. The quote below is from that edition (p.66) of Ecole de Cavalerie for executing the shoulder in:
Sounds like a 4-track shoulder-in, in the words of the inventor.
But, since the competition rules say the shoulder-in is 3-tracks, then show it in 3 tracks. The world is not “either - or” it is “both” and both definitions are correct.
Theory is the backbone of knowledge. Edwards Deming (my hero) said “Experience by itself teaches us nothing.” Deming disagreed with the philosophy of “experience is the best teacher” and preached that one needs to interpret an observation within the context of the framework of a system of theory. The old books give us context for the evolution of the training of the horse. They are fascinating reading.[/QUOTE]
Please post more often!:yes:
From Jane Savoie:
leg yeild is done on 4 tracks.
shoulder fore is on 4 tracks but the legs are lined up differently.
During shoulder in the horse is on three tracks, the horse’s front legs are brought in off the track at about a 30 degree angle to the rail. The hind leg will be lined up directly behind the outside foreleg
Some people bring the forehand in to a greater degree, creating a 4 track. It isn’t an issue as long as the bend is maintained otherwise it becomes a leg yield.
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pluvinel…thanks for the references!
the Duke of Newcastle, as did many other then and ever since, did sh-in on the bending line/circle.
The Duke’s horses were NOT on the forehand as he understood that idea and was trying to see just how much engagement/balance shift one could get from the exercise.
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To enjoy the ride.
Anytime a horse moves part of it’s body away from the pressure of a single leg applied by the rider,at the girth or behind it, it’s yielding to that leg as bend is created. A horse is therefore yielding,or in ‘leg yield’, in any movement in which there is bend whether it be shoulder-in, in however many tracks, but also travers, renvers and half-pass. The shoulder-fore is with less bend than a 3 track shoulder-in and therefore ridden on 2.5 tracks as was mentioned earlier on this thread. It can be useful to straighten a horse, particularly at canter.
The modern movement of so called ‘leg yield’ in which the horse is asked to move to the side with as little bend as possible is of no educational or gymnastic value to either the horse or the rider.
From a continuing historical perspective I believe the jury may still be out as to who actually developed the shoulder-in as the literature suggests that it was being practised at the same time as la Gueriniere wrote about it by Carlos Manoel d’Andrade, ecuyer to the Portuguese Royal Court.
I don’t think it’s always possible to be exactly sure how those movements looked in those days. I’m not so sure the same words meant the same things back then, or created a picture that would look so familiar to us.
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[QUOTE=slc2;4653344]
I don’t think it’s always possible to be exactly sure how those movements looked in those days. I’m not so sure the same words meant the same things back then, or created a picture that would look so familiar to us.[/QUOTE]
Actually we do. They did not have photographers, but they did have illustrators.
Below is one of the classic engravings from the Duke of Newcastle’s book.
http://www.georgeglazer.com/prints/sporting/horses/dukeinv/plate17.jpg
Pluvinel (1627) “L’Instruction du Roy” has some training engravings, but mainly it is of the King (Louis XIII) and his friends watching the M. Plu give the king lessons and the king riding his horses…The engravings in this book do give a good picture of the life at court.
Ridinger’s book have very good engravings of training exercises.
Andrade’s La Luz e Nobre Arte de Cavaleria also has training exercises.
George Winter’s books have training engravings.
Baron d’Eisenberg’s book has training engravings.
http://www.hoofprintstudio.com/store/images/Plate10.jpg
Pls note the extreme bend and lateral work of these prints. These prints date from the 1600-1700’s…long before the “campaign school” from which the modern Olympics evolved.
The “campaign school” favored the big forward galloping horse needed for war. Some of the cavalry officers studied the academic equitation of the manege, but it was not part the formal schooling required for the 1800-1900’s cavalry. Our modern dressage competitions date to the traditions of the modern cavalry…eg., the cavalry that used the big forward-moving galloping horse.
The rules of the current dressage competition date to the end of WWII when the horse cavalry was disbanded. They are based on the campaign school. One also needs to understand that there is another equitation that favored a different “look” for their horse. This is what is meant that arguement about a 3-track or 4-track SI are moot…both are right…it just depends of the frame of reference.
This is what I mean when Deming says you need to know theory. One needs to understand the evolution of horse training from the days of the manege (1600-1700) to the changes brought about because of the needs of war and the use of the horse in war during the late 1800’s and up to (and including) WWII.
Some rare print dealers buy the books to break them apart for the engravings and throw away the text. If you can befriend one, they will give you the old text if you buy the print.
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[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4650707]
btw., SI predates either rule book:lol:La Guérinière is credited with “inventing” the shoulder in; My reading knowledge of French is too poor to know which number of tracks he ascribed to; does anyone know?[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that Steinbrecht used 3 tracks, De La Guiriniere used 4 tracks.
[QUOTE=stryder;4653477]
My understanding is that Steinbrecht used 3 tracks, De La Guiriniere used 4 tracks.[/QUOTE]
Gustav Steinbrecht (1808-85) is of the era of the “campaign school” horse…In his book, Gymnasium des Pferdes, he does give one of the best descriptions of the shoulder-in.
But…again, one needs to put these books into the appropriate chronological / historical context.
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[QUOTE=pluvinel;4653493]
Gustav Steinbrecht (1808-85) is of the era of the “campaign school” horse…In his book, Gymnasium des Pferdes, he does give one of the best descriptions of the shoulder-in.
But…again, one needs to put these books into the appropriate chronological / historical context.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely! Like Keana, I’m glad to see you here. Thanks for the information.
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If you show on 3 tracks judge will hit you for not enough angle - so 4 tracks.
I’m bring back this thread from the dead to pose a question. What would be the benefits of riding shoulder in on 4 tracks vs. 3? Obviously the current rules call for 3 tracks in a test. But if I’m schooling this movement for the benefit of training only, what slight difference am I getting if choose one over the other?
I’ve seen people refer to the 4 tracks as “more classical” and that it is a better suppling exercise than a 3 track shoulder in. I am trying to understand the mechanics of both variations and why I might want to use one over the other at a given moment.
I also found a note in a Janey Foy book that years ago the rules did actually call for a 4 track shoulder in originally. Then it was changed to 3 tracks. So then I’m wondering why it was changed, which I assume goes back to my original question.
Anyone been showing long enough to know the context of this change in the rules?
You have two questions posed above. I will try to answer them separately.
Question (a): Using the Shoulder-In as a schooling movement.
It is not an “either/or” question of 4-tracks vs 3-tracks…it is a “both/AND”…You use BOTH the 3 AND the 4 track shoulder in to develop different muscles in the horse.
Ever do a leg press at the gym? You can do a leg press flat footed, with only your toes (foot plantar flexed) or with the heels (foot in dorsiflex position). Each position isolates and works different muscles in the leg.
Same with the shoulder-in. The 4-track shoulder-in requires the horse to cross-over (adduct) the inside hind leg and extend (abduct) the outside hind and open up the leg. This develops lateral engagement. The 3-track shoulder-in requires the horse to reach forward and under, towards the mid-line, which develops the muscling for longitudinal engagement.
So…both the 3 and 4 track SI have gymnastic purposes in developing the athletic capabilities of the horse.
Question (b): I really have no deep insight on the change in the rules. But I will say that during my riding career starting from early 1970’s when most “dressage” horses were TB’s, there seemed to be a marked change in the rules that dates to the late 1980’s-1990’s where more emphasis was placed on bigger gaits as the WB’s started to be imported and started to dominate dressage.
You can use both shoulder-ins in your training…the ability to change the angle and engagement will develop lateral flexibility in the horse…then use the 3-track in competition.
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