Shoulder In: Three Tracks or Four

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

You are talking about “Judges Training.” Everyone agrees at SI in competition is in 3 tracks. No one is debating that point.

The OP, asked about the Shoulder-In as a training exercise. Two different concepts. Competition vs Training.

It seems that some people can only conceptualize the lateral movements as something that is done in a dressage test and not as a useful movements to help gymnasticize their horse.

Lateral work…in all its assorted variations and degrees…including the 90-degree full-pass…is horse yoga.

I prefer to keep things simple; SI is SI is 3 tracks. What I believe people are referring to as a 4 track SI is really LY done against the rail, maybe with varying degrees of flexion. That doesn’t take away from any gymnastic benefit, it just helps communication via a common vocabulary.

This conversation reminds me of a time when I went into a restaurant for breakfast, ordered eggs over easy only to have the waitress warn me that at that place “over easy” meant the yokes were cooked hard. She suggested that what I wanted was “sunny side up”; I went with scrambled.

Totally agree that the entire point of dressage is to gymnasticize the horse. Well, that and to bankrupt and frustrate the rider but I digress.

[MysticOakRanch]

@atlatl

I prefer to keep things simple; SI is SI is 3 tracks. What I believe people are referring to as a 4 track SI is really LY done against the rail, maybe with varying degrees of flexion. That doesn’t take away from any gymnastic benefit, it just helps communication via a common vocabulary.

.

Agree - once you get to full 4 track, you lose the bend, and it becomes LY. Still a very useful exercise - there are so many great gymnastic exercises, and of course, not all are seen in the show ring!

I just had this convo with a clinician last weekend - he asked me for haunches out on the circle, so I did renvers. No, no, no, haunches out, if I want renvers, I’ll ask for renvers. Ahhhh, I respond, you want leg yield on the circle.

Vocabulary is very important, totally agree with that. I also don’t feel that “competition dressage” is different from “training dressage” - the language should remain the same - we just USE more exercises in training dressage…

[atlatl]

@MysticOakRanch

I just had this convo with a clinician last weekend - he asked me for haunches out on the circle, so I did renvers. No, no, no, haunches out, if I want renvers, I’ll ask for renvers. Ahhhh, I respond, you want leg yield on the circle.

…

Ha! I was recently asked by a clinician to leg yield while on a circle; I leg yielded out to a bigger circle. “No, no, no, …” Turns out what was wanted was closer to turn on forehand until we changed direction. A great exercise BTW for getting the horse to step under itself and go onto the outside rein.

[pluvinel]

A student of riding should understand the evolution of their discipline just like any professional.

So, for terminology I will go back to Gueriniere, the inventor of the Shoulder-In, and before him the Duke of Newcastle.

If you look at the old engravings, the prints for “epaule en dedans” (eg., shoulder-in) clearly show 4 tracks. Whether that has changed/evolved/been perverted…or whatever…a student of riding should understand this history.

Below is the classic print from Gueriniere. This print originates from the octavo edition of Fancois Robichon de Guerniere’s ‘Ecole de Cavalerie contenant La Connoissance, l’Instruction, et la Conservation du Cheval’ published in 1769 in Paris.

And below is the “footprint” to execute the exercise. The intent of the shoulder-in is used to gymnasticize the horse and making him supple. Thus, a supple horse WILL be able to execute a 4-track SI
[IMG2=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“src”:"https://i0.wp.com/s300394505.onlinehome.fr/th3baine/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/epaule-en-dedans-plan-de-terre.jpg?resize=487%2C761)

I acknowledge that the current thinking and teaching is that SI is in 3 tracks…BUT…I also think a serious student of dressage needs to understand this history and the use of the movement.

[atlatl]

@pluvinel I appreciate you going to the trouble to scan in those images.

What I think is interesting is that George Stubbs, (1724 – 1806), is generally considered as one of the first to portray horses in an anatomically correct fashion in art.

I believe you that the octavo edition (1/8th size where pages fold out to larger size, I googled it for the rest of the crowd) was published in 1769. The illustrations clearly are not the work of Stubbs.

What I don’t know is if Gueriniere (1688–1751) or the Duke of Newcastle before him invented the SI or who if anyone did the QC on the “foot print” since it was published nearly 20 years after Gueriniere’s death. I offer this not be argumentative but as an interesting timeline observation that confirms in my mind the need to take historical documents with a grain of salt.

A side note on the value I believe we both put on peer review; The Joy of Cooking was never peer-reviewed nor all the recipes tested in comparison to my “Bible” Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child et al.

I find dressage to be challenging enough without muddying the waters arguing about the historical definitions of movements.

I agree that a serious student of dressage needs to understand the use and effect of SI; the history, not so much.

[RedHorses]

Is not shoulder in the position where the horse’s hindquarters remain marching forward along the track, with a bend in the spine that brings the forehand to the inside such that it is tracking at an angle?

That diagram shows a straight spine or at best a minor leg yield sort of bend…
​​​

For what it’s worth, the clinician had a rider halt in shoulder in and he went and stood between the horse’s shoulder and the wall. This is the correct angle for competition, he said, but at home you can work a steeper angle to get the horse stepping under himeslf more with the inside hind leg.

[dotneko]

@MysticOakRanch

Agree - once you get to full 4 track, you lose the bend, and it becomes LY. Still a very useful exercise - there are so many great gymnastic exercises, and of course, not all are seen in the show ring!

I just had this convo with a clinician last weekend - he asked me for haunches out on the circle, so I did renvers. No, no, no, haunches out, if I want renvers, I’ll ask for renvers. Ahhhh, I respond, you want leg yield on the circle.

Vocabulary is very important, totally agree with that. I also don’t feel that “competition dressage” is different from “training dressage” - the language should remain the same - we just USE more exercises in training dressage…

I disagree. A correct 4 track shoulder in has too much bend and angle. It is not leg yield on the wall which has no bend.
Yes, if ridden incorrectly it can become legyield when the inside hind tries to cross through the plane of the body rather than increase it’s bending of the joints and step towards the horses center of gravity.
Again, the key is what the hind legs do.

[emipou]

I came across this video earlier in the week. Felt this was a good video to share here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3QdD6uWys
Paul Belasik discusses modern vs classic SI.

[dotneko]

Great video!

[pluvinel]

I prefer Emile Faurie’s description for how to ride a correct shoulder in…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-P6SEF9SAA

Faurie is a British Olympic Dressage rider.

[alibi_18]

@emipou

I came across this video earlier in the week. Felt this was a good video to share here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja3QdD6uWys
Paul Belasik discusses modern vs classic SI.

Problem is, he contredicts the FEI.

Half pass is a travers on the diagonal.

@pluvinel I prefer your video.

[alibi_18]

https://www.facebook.com/Dressprod/posts/2148325892121378

And here is a nice video of Isabell Werth doing a half pass and videod from the diagonal. You can clearly see the shoulders on the diagonal and the travers.