show fees, non-refundable, how many times have you lost yours?

[Silverbridge]

I just signed up for an out-of-State show, which will be my most expensive outing of the season. Hauling fees for her, flight for me, hotel, rental car, horse stall, tack stall, lessons, braiding. And I probably left something out.

Yikes. If anything goes awry in the coming weeks, I will be out most of it, so I just won’t think about that!

Up to now I have only ever had to scratch one class, and it was because as people said they have done above-- we met goals in other rides at the same show and doing fewer rides seemed sensible in terms of helping the horse have a positive experience and not feel overused.

[Mardi]

Yes, that was me. Technically the show never did refund the fees to me (the payee) even though all the criteria was met to receive the money. They stole my money and gave it to someone else.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=IndysMom;8610639]
It seems to me that the issue wasn’t would the show refund the fees, but that they applied her refund to someone else’s account via the trainer!! NO![/QUOTE]

Yes, that was me. Technically the show never did refund the fees to me (the payee) even though all the criteria was met to receive the money. They stole my money and gave it to someone else.

[Manni01]

I am wondering. I usually pay in advance, but I remember that I got to a show and there were a couple of people in front of me, when I got my number and they had to pay nearly all the required fees on site. Obviously they did not pay in advance… Not sure if that would be a solution???

[redsoxluvr]

I have scratched due to bad weather. I didn’t expect my money back. The organizers have to pay the judges, the USDF fees, transportation for the judges, for the tents, etc etc whether I show up or not. I don’t expect a refund if stuff happens.

[rothmpp]

The sheer expense of running a nice show would boggle the minds of some of you. I know it is crazy to think that most dressage shows don’t make a ton of money when we are all writing $500 checks, but the shows really don’t make a lot of money.

One of the reasons most show managers stopped allowing for a vet excuse was how ridiculously easy it is to get a vet note, even if there is nothing wrong with the horse.

The management that runs most of the shows in my area rarely closes post entries, has very reasonable post entry fees, and schedules very late - so I usually just wait until the weekend before and pay the post entry fees. The post entry per class fee is a hella lot less expensive than forfeiting the whole entry fee if something goes wrong 10 days out.

[Sandy_M]

Interesting question. I’ve had various experiences. Once, I had entered three shows ahead (period of approx. 8-10 weeks total), and horse injured himself. It as only two days before the first show. I called the managers, and they were very sympathetic, said they would not required a vet certificate, and would do their best to fill my slots. If not, They could not refund the fees. 24 hours later they called to say they had filled the slots and would be refunding my fees, no office fee deducted.

Second show was 3 weeks away. Manager said, “Shall I send the check back or shall I tear it up?” (It was their last show of the season, or they would have offered to apply fees to next show). I said tear it up, and thank you.

Third show - the one 10 weeks away: Oh, yeah, they refunded my entry fees, but deducted office fees. They were also the biggest, most important show in the area who could well afford to just tear up my check: They already had a waiting list. shrug

Letter of the law versus spirit, I guess.

[Lord_Helpus]

I ‘lost’ $70 because I could not get to a schooling show yesterday. The show charged $30/class if sent in with entries and $35/class if paid on the day of the show. I was going to pay the day of the show but my trailer was busy taking my (other) horse on a rush trip to new Bolton.

When my friend told the organizer that I would not be there, but would send in my fees, they lady said OK and turned away. I know the correct thing to do is pay the fee… but the lady knew all along that my attendance was contingent on the health of my other horse…

Whatever happened to goodwill?

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8616895]

Whatever happened to goodwill?[/QUOTE]

Really sorry to hear about your other horse, but as rothmpp points out - putting on a show is expensive. Even a schooling show. So if show management returned fees for every horse that didn’t come, they still have to pay all the show costs. The judges, TDs, EMT, arena rental, ribbons, tests, its all paid for no matter what.

Shows are not big money makers - so although most show managers really do feel bad when you have to scratch, when you can’t make it, they can’t afford to refund fees.

If we all want to continue to have opportunities to show, we need to accept that we will sometimes lose our entry fees. It is so different from “rail classes”, where there could be 10 or 15 horses in the ring for a few minutes - each one paying an entry fee. Those shows make money! But in dressage, ONE horse is in the ring for 7 minutes ALONE. That one horse’s fee has to pay for 7 minutes of judge time, arena rental, ribbons, and other show support staff and costs. If that one horse doesn’t show up, that time slot is still reserved for that one horse.

If you’ve ever been to a non-dressage show - you hang around all day, waiting for your class(es) - hurry up and wait. With dressage, we pay for our time slot(s) - it is so civilized and organized

[AltersAreUs]

I’ve lost a number of entry fees over the years between weather, lame horse and life in general. Normally I just shrug & say that’s life. Only two times has it pissed me off, both schooling shows.

One had a late season snow storm roll through and the show canceled at the last minute. They didn’t offer refunds or anything towards the next show. Their consolation prize was schooling time at the show facility during the middle of the day during the work week. Since the show was being held at the town ring, this was not any sort of bonus for me personally and since most of the entries were kids still in school, even the people who normally couldn’t use the town ring couldn’t take advantage of it either.

Second was another schooling show where a hurricane rolled through. Plenty of warning, state of emergency issued days in advance, governor ordered everyone off the roads. Every other show that weekend, including the rated ones, offered refunds or put the fees towards the next show. Farm in question refused to cancel and supposedly held their show during the height of the hurricane. Best guess, the people who lived at the farm rode in the indoor and got their ribbons. Thoroughly screwed everyone else as this farm did year end awards for their schooling shows and you had to make all three shows for it to count.

So yeah, those two were the only ones that really bugged me and I’ve refused to show either venue/club again. I’ve also warned my barn mates so at least they know what they’re signing up for in advance.

[joiedevie99]

Sure! It’s just the way of the world. One season I scratched three shows in their entirety due to abscesses.

It’s not uncommon for me to scratch single classes either. For example, at Regionals this year I entered a class for the day between our two championships in case I needed it. Horse was great the first day, so I scratched the middle day and opted to conserve energy. Also, a young horse that has been good Friday, and Saturday will often get scratched on Sunday. I’ve also filled scratches in classes I didn’t enter if I felt the horse really needed to get back in the ring. When you enter shows 3-4 weeks out, you don’t always guess right.

I’ve also scratched due to footing/weather. It’s not worth risking in injury by riding on slick footing.

[Doberpei]

This is why people now beg to be let into shows late, and gladly pay a late fee. The late fee is far less than the loss of the entry fee. Show organizers have a dicey situation - They still have fees to pay, and they want people to enter, so by “accepting” late entries, they give themselves ulcers, hoping the show will fill, and knowing that they will have a few late nights scheduling the show since most everyone enters late now. (At least this is the case in my area. My coworker is a frequent show manager and secretary. By the closing date, she is usually in a panic trying to decide if she needs to cancel a ring and a judge, and then she gets flooded by entries.)

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

I’ve lost over $1000 in show fees, hotel, etc. for one show due to weather (more of an issue with getting to the venue, not the actual show as it was moved indoors).

My personal opinion is that there should be a waiting list and that any “whole show scratches” can be filled by the waiting list of horses, in cases of shortages of rides, etc.

As I’m filling out entries in the next few days, I wanted to share this. A two-show series several hours away ROCKS…This show series is FUN, small, and extremely well run. I think all of our shows here are fun and well run, but this takes the cake.

“CANCELLATION OR SUBSTITUTION OF ENTRIES: To encourage early entries the management agrees to cancel and refund all fees except the office fee on any horse not fit to show provided that written notice and a veterinary certificate are given to the show secretary by July 2, 2016 (7 days before the show).
Cancellation of entries after this date, for any reason, forfeits all fees except those which are paid to the USEF and USDF only if the horse competes. After the show has commenced no exhibitor may withdraw horse from the show or remove them from the show grounds without the permission of the Show Management.”

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8620714]
“After the show has commenced no exhibitor may withdraw horse from the show or remove them from the show grounds without the permission of the Show Management.”[/QUOTE]

Say what? Is this an FEI or championships show?

If regular shows are going in this direction (I assume related to drugging and drug testing, because that’s the only legitimate reason I can see management attempting to control the flight of individuals from a show), then the industry is in even worse shape than I thought.

Or someone, please, tell me I’m missing something obvious and this is about something else.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8621450]
Say what? Is this an FEI or championships show?

If regular shows are going in this direction (I assume related to drugging and drug testing, because that’s the only legitimate reason I can see management attempting to control the flight of individuals from a show), then the industry is in even worse shape than I thought.

Or someone, please, tell me I’m missing something obvious and this is about something else.[/QUOTE]

Not A CDI if that’s what you meant…and not championships either.

I am not the show manager, but I suspect that it has something to do with quarantine and illness.

We have had issues before, one of which was discussed on this form actually, where someone with a sick horse took the horse off of the showgrounds. There that was a question of containing an outbreak.

Again, not the show manager, but my suspicion lies heavily with this thought. I have no issue with it.

If a horse is running a high fever or is otherwise ill with something highly communicable, I certainly want there to be an opportunity to make sure that an outbreak does is as contained as possible.

I don’t think this is unusual in the show world.

[yaya]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8621450]
Say what? Is this an FEI or championships show?

If regular shows are going in this direction (I assume related to drugging and drug testing, because that’s the only legitimate reason I can see management attempting to control the flight of individuals from a show), then the industry is in even worse shape than I thought.

Or someone, please, tell me I’m missing something obvious and this is about something else.[/QUOTE]

This has been a USEF rule for quite some time.

GR1305.1 “No exhibitor may withdraw horses from a Licensed Competition after it has commenced, or remove them from the competition grounds, without the permission of the competition secretary.”

Lots of reasons for it: drugging, a little “behind the barn” schooling, whatever.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

Thanks for clarifying!

[netg]

[QUOTE=Mardi;8611498]
Yes, that was me. Technically the show never did refund the fees to me (the payee) even though all the criteria was met to receive the money. They stole my money and gave it to someone else. :([/QUOTE]

Which is totally illegal, but I understand it sounds like in your situation you didn’t want to raise a ruckus for the potential pitfalls you’d face for it.

Any show which is cancelled and doesn’t refund your money owes you that money - otherwise it’s an illegal theft of your money or bait and switch in the case of schooling show vs. mid-week schooling time example. The show during a hurricane was bad horsemanship and sportsmanship, but sounds technically legal. And would keep me from ever going to a show there again.

[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8620714]I’ve lost over $1000 in show fees, hotel, etc. for one show due to weather (more of an issue with getting to the venue, not the actual show as it was moved indoors).

My personal opinion is that there should be a waiting list and that any “whole show scratches” can be filled by the waiting list of horses, in cases of shortages of rides, etc.

As I’m filling out entries in the next few days, I wanted to share this. A two-show series several hours away ROCKS…This show series is FUN, small, and extremely well run. I think all of our shows here are fun and well run, but this takes the cake.

“CANCELLATION OR SUBSTITUTION OF ENTRIES: To encourage early entries the management agrees to cancel and refund all fees except the office fee on any horse not fit to show provided that written notice and a veterinary certificate are given to the show secretary by July 2, 2016 (7 days before the show).
Cancellation of entries after this date, for any reason, forfeits all fees except those which are paid to the USEF and USDF only if the horse competes. After the show has commenced no exhibitor may withdraw horse from the show or remove them from the show grounds without the permission of the Show Management.”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8621654]Not A CDI if that’s what you meant…and not championships either.

I am not the show manager, but I suspect that it has something to do with quarantine and illness.

We have had issues before, one of which was discussed on this form actually, where someone with a sick horse took the horse off of the showgrounds. There that was a question of containing an outbreak.

Again, not the show manager, but my suspicion lies heavily with this thought. I have no issue with it.

If a horse is running a high fever or is otherwise ill with something highly communicable, I certainly want there to be an opportunity to make sure that an outbreak does is as contained as possible.

I don’t think this is unusual in the show world.[/QUOTE]

yaya clarified that it is a rule, and the statement is on all our show entries in AZ, I believe.

The owners of the horse which was removed without permission had used our hose, and due to that we quarantined all horses from our barn who were at the show for a couple months after (I think? It was a vet recommended duration, and I don’t remember how long but it FELT like a year!) Total pain. Thankfully, while they were too busy worrying about their horse and getting to an animal hospital at the time (understandably), they were willing to share information after the fact, including that the horse recovered and tested negative for everything. They thought there was a systemic infection due to a shot, but since no tests were conclusive and the horse was very sick, we and several other barns kept our horses quarantined to be safe.

[Halt_Near_X]

[QUOTE=netg;8622517]
yaya clarified that it is a rule, and the statement is on all our show entries in AZ, I believe.[/QUOTE]

I checked entries for one of our local rated shows and didn’t see it, which is part of why I asked. But maybe I just missed it.

I appreciate the clarification from everyone. Sorry for the sidetrack.

[yaya]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;8622565]
I checked entries for one of our local rated shows and didn’t see it, which is part of why I asked. But maybe I just missed it.

I appreciate the clarification from everyone. Sorry for the sidetrack.[/QUOTE]

GR1305.1 is not required to be printed in a show’s prize list.

USEF members are supposed to be familiar with all the General Rules as well as those of their specific discipline. But since it is one of the rules that many people seem to miss (it was in a COTH thread about little-known rules a few months back), it’s probably a good idea to have it in there!