Just wondering, if a trainer enters a horse but then cannot attend the show due to other commitments, is it appropriate that the trainer cover the fees?
[QUOTE=Manni01;8611532]
I am wondering. I usually pay in advance, but I remember that I got to a show and there were a couple of people in front of me, when I got my number and they had to pay nearly all the required fees on site. Obviously they did not pay in advance… Not sure if that would be a solution???[/QUOTE]
I have seen this happen and it is extremely shady. I remember a very particular moment at a VERY popular show that always has an extensive wait list/fills up opening week etc. I was in the office picking up packets for myself and my barn mates and was chatting briefly with one of the show secretaries that I knew from volunteering and scribing at this particular event in the past. Individual shows up and has to pay stabling fee/USEF drug fees etc, everything but class fees basically. Essentially paid the class fees only so she’d get on the schedule. The other secretary was handling this and the one I was chatting with just rolled her eyes.
This person paid the minimum amount to basically hold the spot and paid the rest upon arrival. With a show that is generally oversubscribed with a hefty wait list I wish this wasn’t allowed period. There are people that would have paid the PROPER amount up front to get into this show. Whereas this person flaunted on her way out that ‘at least Dobbin was sound and she managed to get in without losing potential money anyway’.
It’s one thing to forget an office fee, or stall cleaning deposit but to do it on purpose so you get the best of both worlds (show entry and minimal loss of money on your end) is cruel to honest competitors.
[QUOTE=Aleuronx;8622952]
I have seen this happen and it is extremely shady. I remember a very particular moment at a VERY popular show that always has an extensive wait list/fills up opening week etc. I was in the office picking up packets for myself and my barn mates and was chatting briefly with one of the show secretaries that I knew from volunteering and scribing at this particular event in the past. Individual shows up and has to pay stabling fee/USEF drug fees etc, everything but class fees basically. Essentially paid the class fees only so she’d get on the schedule. The other secretary was handling this and the one I was chatting with just rolled her eyes.
This person paid the minimum amount to basically hold the spot and paid the rest upon arrival. With a show that is generally oversubscribed with a hefty wait list I wish this wasn’t allowed period. There are people that would have paid the PROPER amount up front to get into this show. Whereas this person flaunted on her way out that ‘at least Dobbin was sound and she managed to get in without losing potential money anyway’.
It’s one thing to forget an office fee, or stall cleaning deposit but to do it on purpose so you get the best of both worlds (show entry and minimal loss of money on your end) is cruel to honest competitors.[/QUOTE]
Was this NEDA?
It was very unprofessional of the secretary to roll her eyes about a competitor, especially in front of someone else. If the secretary put someone on a schedule with minimal fees then she clearly allowed it to happen. I would not assume is is done “to get the best of both worlds” and that the competitor is cruel and dishonest.
Once someone signs up for a show, my understanding is that the fees are then due regardless if that is the policy. If not, that is the fault of the show mgmt, not the competitor following the rules.
At the aforementioned show, I had not yet paid all of my fees; I still wrote the check after the fact knowing that I wasn’t going to be able to show due to weather. I viewed my entry as a contract regardless of whether I paid ahead or not.
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8623263]
Was this NEDA?[/QUOTE]
I will not name the show (it was a recognized) nor the competitor that I saw do this exact ploy. Like I said in my post it is one thing to forget a fee or miscalculate but it is absolutely not okay to bend the rules to your own whim by not paying the amount on purpose.
Unfortunately I am not assuming anything as this competitor flaunted the fact OUT LOUD to the person she was with on the way out of the office.
Was it fair of the secretary to allow this to happen? No, and I voiced my displeasure at it. The world is not a fair place but I feel obligated to stand up for the right thing. Even though I played by the rules and risked losing $$$'s and was not one who did not get into the show because of other’s actions.
[QUOTE=Aleuronx;8623274]
I will not name the show (it was a recognized) nor the competitor that I saw do this exact ploy. Like I said in my post it is one thing to forget a fee or miscalculate but it is absolutely not okay to bend the rules to your own whim by not paying the amount on purpose.
Unfortunately I am not assuming anything as this competitor flaunted the fact OUT LOUD to the person she was with on the way out of the office.
Was it fair of the secretary to allow this to happen? No, and I voiced my displeasure at it. The world is not a fair place but I feel obligated to stand up for the right thing. Even though I played by the rules and risked losing $$$'s and was not one who did not get into the show because of other’s actions.[/QUOTE]
She didn’t bend the rules; show management either didn’t have rules in place or it didn’t follow its own rules. Either way, the fault of show management, not the competitor. USEF won’t back the show up in that case unless she bounced a check/stopped payment/whatever.
Regardless of what the competitor said or “flaunted” as you say, you don’t know the original motivation.
There is a difference between following rules and what is deemed fair by any of us.
Is it fair that multiple competitors have lost thousands on entry fees due to horse illness, rider illness, etc.? No.
If I were any number of riders who had, and the show did not require me to do a “full entry” with nonrefundable fees, and there were a “legal” way I could pay as little as possible so as to limit my financial exposure as much as possible, I can see a valid argument that this in fact would be “fair.”
I don’t know the show you reference nor do I know the rules on entries there, so this is all purely hypothetical. But if the show simply required payment of a class fee to hold a place in a show for multiple classes, without a contract for payment of the other classes/fees, that is their own liability.
That wouldn’t make me cruel and or dishonest.
Neither party followed the rules stated in the show prizelist. The decision maker was spoken with about it. I only want to discourage others from following this to somehow cheat the system to their own benefit. You may do as you see fit.
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;8623302]
Is it fair that multiple competitors have lost thousands on entry fees due to horse illness, rider illness, etc.? No.[/QUOTE]
It is fair. Does it hurt and is it a total bummer to most people? Yes. I don’t pay for a gym membership up front and expect reimbursement when I’m deathly ill and can’t workout for a month, I don’t finance a car and expect reimbursement when I can’t drive it for a week due to travel, I don’t pay for a show and expect full reimbursement past the closing date because of abcess/lameness/illness etc.
Show management is a very difficult job and I truly appreciate every single one that takes the time and effort to pull together shows for our region. I encourage everyone to volunteer and see for yourself what a monumental effort it is to put on these events for people and how impossible of a task it is to keep hundreds of competitors 100% happy, 100% of the time.
We pay to play or shows disappear.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8611532]
I am wondering. I usually pay in advance, but I remember that I got to a show and there were a couple of people in front of me, when I got my number and they had to pay nearly all the required fees on site. Obviously they did not pay in advance… Not sure if that would be a solution???[/QUOTE]
Unless you know these people personally and they have a reputation for “no shows” at competitions, I would not necessarily assume it was to avoid “exposure”. Maybe they were a late post entry and the show does not do credit cards? So, rather than the chance that the check does not get to the secretary before the show, they allowed for the competitor to bring it with them. If the competitor is well-known to the show management and they are confident that they will settle their bill at the show, they allowed for it.
[QUOTE=Aleuronx;8622952]I have seen this happen and it is extremely shady. I remember a very particular moment at a VERY popular show that always has an extensive wait list/fills up opening week etc. I was in the office picking up packets for myself and my barn mates and was chatting briefly with one of the show secretaries that I knew from volunteering and scribing at this particular event in the past. Individual shows up and has to pay stabling fee/USEF drug fees etc, everything but class fees basically. Essentially paid the class fees only so she’d get on the schedule. The other secretary was handling this and the one I was chatting with just rolled her eyes.
This person paid the minimum amount to basically hold the spot and paid the rest upon arrival. With a show that is generally oversubscribed with a hefty wait list I wish this wasn’t allowed period. There are people that would have paid the PROPER amount up front to get into this show. Whereas this person flaunted on her way out that ‘at least Dobbin was sound and she managed to get in without losing potential money anyway’.
It’s one thing to forget an office fee, or stall cleaning deposit but to do it on purpose so you get the best of both worlds (show entry and minimal loss of money on your end) is cruel to honest competitors.[/QUOTE]
Again, without knowing the person - it can be hard to judge intent. Maybe the entry was done by someone other than the rider and they erred on the calculations. Maybe the rider originally intended on not stabling at the show, or the horse got in off the wait list initially without a stall, and one opened up after the initial payment had been processed. I can think of a dozen scenarios in which there was not a intent to “hold” a spot for little.
In both scenarios, the entries in question did pay their full bill, right? Even if they never showed up, you don’t know that they would have never paid their full entry fees.
[QUOTE=Aleuronx;8623355]
Neither party followed the rules stated in the show prizelist. The decision maker was spoken with about it. I only want to discourage others from following this to somehow cheat the system to their own benefit. You may do as you see fit.
It is fair. Does it hurt and is it a total bummer to most people? Yes. I don’t pay for a gym membership up front and expect reimbursement when I’m deathly ill and can’t workout for a month, I don’t finance a car and expect reimbursement when I can’t drive it for a week due to travel, I don’t pay for a show and expect full reimbursement past the closing date because of abcess/lameness/illness etc.
Show management is a very difficult job and I truly appreciate every single one that takes the time and effort to pull together shows for our region. I encourage everyone to volunteer and see for yourself what a monumental effort it is to put on these events for people and how impossible of a task it is to keep hundreds of competitors 100% happy, 100% of the time.
We pay to play or shows disappear.[/QUOTE]
Sigh.
No one is cheating the system here nor is anyone advocating cheating. Read for clarity and understanding.
Having run more than one show, I agree that it is impossible to keep everyone happy. It seems as though you are the one unhappy in this particular situation, regarding something that doesn’t appear to be any of your business.
Some shows do refund fees when horses or riders cannot compete; apparently this does not happen in your area or you are not aware of it. Perhaps they should consider it if the shows are well attended. And some gyms allow you to freeze your membership in cases of illness or injury.
You make a bit of assumptions here about fellow competitors, show mgmt, and posters here, and they probably are incorrect assumptions.
[QUOTE=rothmpp;8623386]
Unless you know these people personally and they have a reputation for “no shows” at competitions, I would not necessarily assume it was to avoid “exposure”. Maybe they were a late post entry and the show does not do credit cards? So, rather than the chance that the check does not get to the secretary before the show, they allowed for the competitor to bring it with them. If the competitor is well-known to the show management and they are confident that they will settle their bill at the show, they allowed for it.
In both scenarios, the entries in question did pay their full bill, right? Even if they never showed up, you don’t know that they would have never paid their full entry fees.[/QUOTE]
Wow this is interesting that my post caused such a discussion. Sure I dont know those people and I have no real idea how all this happened, and also I dont know whether they would have paid if they would not have showed up.
The only thing which made me wonder was, that it was a huge bill what they payed and they were professionals, so a lot more experienced then me.
I dont think I would have even tried to enter a show without paying first, because I thought I read in the rules, that you are not allowed to start if you did not pay with your entry. So this scenario was kind of a surprise for me. But I always try to learn and so when I read this discussion I thought that maybe there was a reason for it. But of course this was a personal assumption…
