Dressagediosa - he’s lovely. I’d be thrilled too.
Four of five colts by Sir Donnerhall I were licensed yesterday in Vechta, with one earning a premium award (Sir Donnerhall I / Quattro B / Feiner Stern).
I tried to watch the live streaming for a while yesterday. It was hard to see the bridle numbers and there was no audio, so a bit tricky to figure out which colt was which (I had to compare color & markings with my catalog), but it seemed that the Sir D’s were as a lot pretty sensitive and reactive. This jives with what I have already seen and heard about the Sir D offspring, but no stallion is perfect in every category. Also, professional riders are not bothered much by that type of “alertness”, as it can certainly transform into brilliance under the rider.
Again, from what I have heard from very experienced sources, Sir D I pretty reliably passes long legs, elasticity, big, expansive trots and super canters, but the walk is often an issue. As for him being a “walk killer”, if you get a foal with a 7 walk out of a mare with a 9 or 10 walk, then I guess you could say that he killed the walk. And although many believe that the walk cannot be improved, it actually CAN be improved somewhat through training, so I would certainly be willing to take my chances, esp. on a mare with a really great walk.
… and a “7” for a gait is a good score - just not super, like 8’s and 9’s.
A “bad” walk would score 5ish, and even 6 would not be competitive (IMO)
[QUOTE=Sunnydays;5968895]
… and a “7” for a gait is a good score - just not super, like 8’s and 9’s.
A “bad” walk would score 5ish, and even 6 would not be competitive (IMO)[/QUOTE]
Agreed! Although a “6” walk sometimes IS competitive, depending on who the competition is! 
Sir D’s can be slightly on the longer side.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5969166]
Sir D’s can be slightly on the longer side.[/QUOTE]
Long how?
[QUOTE=Callaway;5969231]
Long how?[/QUOTE]
Longer like the donnerhall long. It comes from the Donnerhall side. My mares SD filly is on the long side and it didn’t come from Rubi. She’s not mine so I won’t post a photo. So if you have a longer than ideal mare, I’d think long and hard before using him.
Mine has a seven walk and I don’t think I would say her dam is more than a seven (so SD didn’t “kill” her walk, fwiw). Honestly, many of those 9 walks lose regularity when you try to collect them, so I myself am totally fine with a 7 walk.
[QUOTE=Donella;5969284]
Honestly, many of those 9 walks lose regularity when you try to collect them, so I myself am totally fine with a 7 walk.[/QUOTE]
It’s because most people don’t know how to ride a walk. In most cases the rider looses the walk, the horse doesn’t lose the walk. Just my .02 
And I say this because my old horse had a near perfect walk and I’d lose it for him. Put his trainer on and it was perfect again. LOL So I was the one to lose his walk, but once I got my contact better and allowed him to bob his head like a chicken even in a collected walk it went back to perfect. Soo… the goal should be to breed for a nice walk. Lets not stop forgetting about the walk. This is one reason it’s getting harder to find stallions with exceptional walks. People are poo-pooing it and becoming ‘ok’ with 7’s.
I don’t mean to “poo poo” huge walks, but generally speaking, the bigger and rangier the gait, the harder it is to package and collect it. I have heard quite a few top trainers talk about not needing a 9 walk and issues that can come with a walk so big. But again, I don’t mean that we should ignore the walk, that has been done enough, I just don’t think a horse needs a nine or ten walk to be considered “complete”.
[QUOTE=Donella;5969674]
I don’t mean to “poo poo” huge walks, but generally speaking, the bigger and rangier the gait, the harder it is to package and collect it. I have heard quite a few top trainers talk about not needing a 9 walk and issues that can come with a walk so big. But again, I don’t mean that we should ignore the walk, that has been done enough, I just don’t think a horse needs a nine or ten walk to be considered “complete”.[/QUOTE]
Agree with this. As you stated, the “9” and “10” walks are harder to package, and even very good riders have to be very, very careful or the walk can go lateral. I would rather have a “7” walk that dependably stays 4-beat, than a “9” walk that gets lateral when not ridden well or the horse is tense.
Sorry guys… as a breeder I would MUCH rather have a horse with an “8” or “9” walk since this gait is nearly impossible to improve under saddle. Agreed that it takes a good rider to actually achieve this score under saddle.
I have an Elite Brood mare that consistently puts an “8-9” walk on her offspring. I would like to improve the natural trot (in-hand and at-liberty) on these youngsters, who really start to develop their trot under saddle. I am interested in Sir Donnerhall as a potential stallion for this mare in 2012. From the thread, it appears that most posters believe that crossing him with a mare with a good walk and a powerful hind end (which this mare has) is the best bet.
Thanks… I have learned a lot on this thread.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;5970345]
Agree with this. As you stated, the “9” and “10” walks are harder to package, and even very good riders have to be very, very careful or the walk can go lateral. I would rather have a “7” walk that dependably stays 4-beat, than a “9” walk that gets lateral when not ridden well or the horse is tense.[/QUOTE]
Then I would argue about the good rider part. Lol. Mediocre rider IMO if they don’t have appropriate contact to maintain a correct collected walk. If a horse is tense a 7 walk can go to a 5. 
So again I would much rather start with a 8/9 walk than a 7.
[QUOTE=HVH;5970375]
Sorry guys… as a breeder I would MUCH rather have a horse with an “8” or “9” walk since this gait is nearly impossible to improve under saddle. Agreed that it takes a good rider to actually achieve this score under saddle. [/QUOTE]
Interesting insight, Annetta. My philosophy is based on comments from some very experienced and successful German breeders, as well as from various inspection officials AND FEI trainers. We actually had this discussion at a recent inspection - where all agreed (inspector, USDF Gold Medalist rider, and handler who is also a very experienced rider/trainer) that the CANTER is the most difficult gait to improve on. IOW, the canter the horse is born with is the canter it will have for life (although the rider can influence the amount of jump in the canter).
At any rate, I think Sir D would be a really good choice for your Radiance mare. She brings her strong hind end and super walk, he brings flash and takt at the trot - that should be a really exciting foal!
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5970393]
Then I would argue about the good rider part. Lol. Mediocre rider IMO if they don’t have appropriate contact to maintain a correct collected walk. If a horse is tense a 7 walk can go to a 5.
So again I would much rather start with a 8/9 walk than a 7.[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess some of the top riders in the world are mediocre, then! :lol:
And even the very best riders sometimes cannot control tension in their horse - esp. in the show ring.
I won’t argue with that. LOL Overbent horses that can’t walk correctly (which is probably a part of why they lose the correct walk, the horse can’t balance with his neck like that)
How did Klimke do on his collected walks back in the day? (I can’t recall but I bet it was better than today’s collected walks and I don’t recall him riding overbent horses)
As breeders…I don’t think any of us should be trying to acheive a 7 in our breeding programs. It’s one thing to end up with a 7 when attempting for a 9 or 10 but another to try to breed for a 7 and nothing better – big mistake. I can’t see the methodology where you only try to get a 7 (on any gate, because it’s still considered good) as a path for improvement through the generations. For a rider to accept that is one thing, but for a breeder the bar should be set higher. JMO
Have to agree with Down Yonder. We have started quite a few S line offspring, and the walk was better once under saddle. Must also agree that if your big walk is not ‘pure’ than give me the seven walk any day…and I am not trying to breed for the 7 walk. Not all S-line offspring have poor walks. Just choose your mare wisely. My Sandro Hit boys gets 8’s in their walks but their Rubinstein dam has a nine for a walk. They also have scored 8’s and above on their trots and canters…scores their dam would be hard pressed to get.
Just saw my Sir Donnerhall filly in Germany yesterday. She is a super mover but walk is her weakest gait for sure. It was more of a tension thing with her than a truly bad walk. Now that she is settled her walk typically over-tracks 1 1/2 hoof prints. Not huge, but good enough when you have a nine canter and trot and 8.5 ridability and jump. I have seen good walks on some of the Sir Donnerhall’s but would just not count on it. I would also make sure your mare is naturally uphill and sits and lifts with her first steps. Another area that the S line can have problems with.
From a rider’s standpoint (no bloodline comment) -
It is better to start with an 8/9 walk than to start with a walk that is AT BEST a 7. Because the same tension that drops your 8/9 walk to a 4/5/6 will be what drops your 7 to a 4. Starting out at a lower ‘base’ number is not necessarily going to make the damage less. A huge walk that is a 10 can be tough but it is not impossible to collect it - but all of that is a matter of proper training and coaching - but IMO that is where the mind/trainability comes into play…
Just MO and worth exactly what you paid for it!
Agree completely.
I don’t think anyone is advocating that breeders should deliberately TRY to breed for only a “7” walk, however, as I said earlier -
“I would rather have a “7” walk that dependably stays 4-beat, than a “9” walk that gets lateral when not ridden well or the horse is tense.”
To clarify, I would be happier with a horse that stays relaxed enough to consistently produce a “7” walk in the show ring, than a horse whose “9” walk frequently degenerates to a “6” in the show ring due to tension or rider error.
