Just introduced to this idea recently - want inputs (will refrain from making my own comments). Idea is to use a side rein with elastic insert and attach from the girth to the noseband such that if the horse hollows, it engages, similar to a standing martingale, but with the give of the elastic.
Pros/cons? Anyone else used this?
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8957863]
Just introduced to this idea recently - want inputs (will refrain from making my own comments). Idea is to use a side rein with elastic insert and attach from the girth to the noseband such that if the horse hollows, it engages, similar to a standing martingale, but with the give of the elastic.
Pros/cons? Anyone else used this?[/QUOTE]
I see this a lot in western. The horses know when the gadgets come off, it doesn’t teach the rider or horse anything.
I also don’t want to tie anything to the head in case they trip or get a leg hung up in it- no I don’t like martingales either.
I wouldn’t want to be on that horse when they hit the end and panic- elastic won’t help.
Also, I WANT MY HORSES HEAD UP. He is a dressage horse. If I keep pulling down then it just encourages the horse to go low/on the forehand, do not want them to associate them going up with tension/pull.
Just ride the horse correctly, there are no shortcuts.
I wouldn’t, personally. The purpose of a standing martingale isn’t to prevent a horse from going hollow - a horse can 100% still be hollow over the topline, disengaged in the hind end, on the forehand etc. in a standing martingale. Its purpose is to prevent a broken/bloody nose from a horse suddenly flinging its head up.
At the very, very best, it will help you create a “head set” - and that is one truly frustrating thing to untrain once it’s been ingrained.
I guess it would work as well as tying the horse’s head in any way “works” but I’m not sure what that accomplishes in the end. I had a horse who could invert so badly he could literally almost hit me in the face with his head. I did use a standing martingale with him for safely reasons, but it didn’t stop him from being less hollow. It kept the rider from being hurt while we taught him to be less hollow.
If it helps you get the horse to a place where you can teach it self carriage then I guess it might work in that instance. Hard to say. As the above poster said, most horses figure out pretty quickly when the gadget is off they can go right back to the old behaviour
Don’t do it! It will set back your correct training. Ask me how I know! Had two not so great trainers - one got me to use a bungee and the other one draw rein. That is where our rearing issues started. Not saying your horse will do the same, but good old fashioned time, good training and strengthening will get you there.
It’s not a training technique in any way. Other than perhaps keeping a horse from throwing its head up, I cannot think of one reason to do this.
Worthless at best, dangerous at worst. As was mentioned, it can end tragically if the horse panics.
I can’t understand the infatuation with pulling a horse’s head down. I want my horse engaged over the back and pushing from behind. If you strap the head down, all youre serving to accomplish is pulling the horse down on the forehand.
Regardless of the fact that that sort of contraption is completely antithetical to proper training, it’s also dangerous. Probably more dangerous than a normal standing martingale. And I already think those are too dangerous to use.
I’ve used a piece of heavy elastic attached to a martingale yoke as a correctly adjusted standing martingale. It worked fine for that, but in no way did it train the horse.
" can’t understand the infatuation with pulling a horse’s head down. I want my horse engaged over the back and pushing from behind. If you strap the head down, all you’re serving to accomplish is pulling the horse down on the forehand." YES, YES, YES!! :applause:
Not saying I’m for/against this (not taking a side on this forum), but based on comments, to clarify my post - this was not presented as a “tie down” in the Western sense - but it’s attached like a tie down or standing - girth to noseband, at a length that didn’t pull the horse down unless horse was going above the bit/hollow, like a properly adjusted standing.
Has anyone seen known dressage trainers using these? For the discussion, lets assume it’s adjusted to catch a horse at a certain point in resistance to either educate the horse to not invert or help create a muscle memory, or to educate a rider to not let the horse go above the bit?
As it was presented to me, it was an aid to encourage the rider to use the aids to push the horse back to the bit to correct the hollowed/resistance, and did not engage if horse and rider were going along properly. The rider in question was not correcting soon enough or enough to make a change and get the horse back up in the bridle, so things would devolve and correcting the above the bit resistance became harder. Horse in question was former h/j, not thrilled with learning about contact, so aid was pitched as an assist for this pair in particular, but is used by well-known local trainer for multiple clients.
If the rider in question hasn’t been properly trained, s/he shouldn’t be riding a horse that hasn’t been properly trained. Remember the old saying: “Green horse + green rider = black and blue.” Send the horse to a qualified trainer and let her/him train the horse, meanwhile let the rider train on a schoolmaster.
“Send the horse to a qualified trainer and let her/him train the horse, meanwhile let the rider train on a schoolmaster.” Excellent advice. I would add, don’t let this particular “trainer” be the one who re-educates this particular horse. Siderein as standing martingale is not a thing. Period.
It is used on multiple horses there.
So it is not being used to fix a problem with a rider as you stated. It is being used for different horses and different riders.
They do that at our riding school but with a market harbourer. It is what they use to have safe horses for beginners. It helps the horse in a little way with uneducated hands. It helps the riders in that the horses are educated and safe to ride.
It is not correct for the horse. We have had one come here recently. We have taken it off. We are riding him correctly. It will take another 6 months or so but I bet he will get a better top line and his mane will come onto one side of his neck.
I had to look up market harbourer, lol, standing martingale in the US. So, with the horses going in this, in your experience, what were the bad habits noted? You note needing 6 months for a better topline, but were there specific behaviors due to the artificial aid or the use in lessons in general?
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8958082]
Not saying I’m for/against this (not taking a side on this forum), but based on comments, to clarify my post - this was not presented as a “tie down” in the Western sense - but it’s attached like a tie down or standing - girth to noseband, at a length that didn’t pull the horse down unless horse was going above the bit/hollow, like a properly adjusted standing. [/QUOTE]
that IS the same thing as a tie down in western and used for a punishment if the horse puts his head up-- call it muscle memory, he is learning about pain and restriction. I don’t think harmony or classical principles will be fostered if the horse is tense and getting yanked on.
This (again) does NOT educate about topline development.
8 yos can ride a horse on the bit, so I don’t buy that it’s out of the grasp of any horse or rider. Its basic dressage.
only an AA here, but I am one who rides a relatively spooky horse who loves to pop above the aids to look.
Any thing that holds the horse’s head down - hands or a contraption, will not work in the long run if you are trying to teach the horse to stay on the bit and over the back. Prevention of a bloody nose is a different beast.
Because, what I have s-l-o-w-l-y learned is that anything that causes the horse to be pushing back up against the bit will cause him to be tight somewhere (neck, jaw, back) and he is not truly relaxing and stretching out into the bit and coming from behind. The horse needs the relaxation in the neck and by his own desire, reaching out and stretching for the bit. Then the horse will really be coming from behind and over the back… Keep them coming from behind and ignore the neck… and keep helping them relax, bend and stretch and it will get better.
From one who has spent far more time then I care to admit trying to “keep” a horse on the aids by keeping them from spooking above the bit. it doesn’t work… really - even though it might look “ok”.
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8958125]
I had to look up market harbourer, lol, standing martingale in the US. So, with the horses going in this, in your experience, what were the bad habits noted? You note needing 6 months for a better topline, but were there specific behaviors due to the artificial aid or the use in lessons in general?[/QUOTE]
To clarify: a market harbourough is not a standing martingale. It is similar to a German martingale (actually they may be interchangeable), but not the same as a standing.
I will play devil’s advocate here and say it depends on the situation. In this particular situation, it being used to prevent the horse from going above the bit is probably not appropriate at all.
However…
I have seen (and it has worked well) side-reins attached from the girth between the horse’s legs to the bit or to the noseband, to help reform particularly rank horses who would rather rear/buck than play. To that end, I feel it is appropriate especially when you are working with a young horse who was started incorrectly that learned to rear to intimidate the rider. The horse can’t rear as dramatically (certainly not in the “over and down” way) if they cannot fling their head and neck back.
I have also used something similar in my program: first 30 days of work after post-track letdown for my OTTBs, I will lunge them lightly a few times a week: I will introduce side-reins attached at the girth, through the martingale (to help hold the sidereins up and keep them out of the way of the legs) to the bit very loosely, while the engagement/action is different, I’ve found it to have a similar result as a Chambon without too much poll pressure. I use it this way mostly for the reasons mentioned above: to keep a particularly athletic horse from becoming the equine version of a kite. It also helps introduce them to contact, as I’ve found introduction to contact with side-reins to be very beneficial to their understanding of the concept: there is no more unbiased, judicial aid than side-reins and when used correctly are a fundamental part of classical training…
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8958082]
Not saying I’m for/against this (not taking a side on this forum), but based on comments, to clarify my post - this was not presented as a “tie down” in the Western sense - but it’s attached like a tie down or standing - girth to noseband, at a length that didn’t pull the horse down unless horse was going above the bit/hollow, like a properly adjusted standing.[/QUOTE]
If it’s attached like a tie down, it’s acting like one ; pulling the head down.
If it’s properly ajusted like a standing martingale, then it’s acting like one ; not doing anything unless if the horse raises its head too high.
It does nothing to prevent/fix an hollow back.
Just to be clear : A horse can have it’s head down, doesn’t mean it’s not hollow in the back…
Has anyone seen known dressage trainers using these? For the discussion, lets assume it’s adjusted to catch a horse at a certain point in resistance to either educate the horse to not invert or help create a muscle memory, or to educate a rider to not let the horse go above the bit?
Yes, but those trainers are known for the wrong reasons.
As it was presented to me, it was an aid to encourage the rider to use the aids to push the horse back to the bit to correct the hollowed/resistance, and did not engage if horse and rider were going along properly. The rider in question was not correcting soon enough or enough to make a change and get the horse back up in the bridle, so things would devolve and correcting the above the bit resistance became harder. Horse in question was former h/j, not thrilled with learning about contact, so aid was pitched as an assist for this pair in particular, but is used by well-known local trainer for multiple clients.
The problem lies here (bold part).
Such training aids should be the exception. Used only to temporarily and quickly fix something that is particular to a rider or a horse. When it becomes the “go to” tool, it’s a sign the trainer’s techniques aren’t that effective.
Standing equipments on horse teach nothing to riders. It can helps for a while but you just don’t learn about correct contact, hollow back or engagement if you don’t address the real problem.
Kids or beginners on horses with side reins are there to protect the horses’ mouth from uneducated hands. Until those riders are stronger in their core, then they could then learn gradually about contact.
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