Wrong end of the horse. I’ll never ever understand how forcing or trapping the head down produces correct movement. It encourages tension, resistance and a sour attitude toward work. Work the training scale, find a good instructor to get you over the bumps you can’t work through yourself, and the engagement will come when the horse is capable of it and understanding what you want. When the horse is traveling properly, the head does not come down independent of the rest of the body. It is an after result of the hind end engaging creating a connection over the back therefore lifting the shoulders. The horse reaching forward into the contact is what completes the cycle and keeps the energy flowing.
[QUOTE=millerra;8958149]
only an AA here, but I am one who rides a relatively spooky horse who loves to pop above the aids to look.
Any thing that holds the horse’s head down - hands or a contraption, will not work in the long run if you are trying to teach the horse to stay on the bit and over the back. Prevention of a bloody nose is a different beast.
Because, what I have s-l-o-w-l-y learned is that anything that causes the horse to be pushing back up against the bit will cause him to be tight somewhere (neck, jaw, back) and he is not truly relaxing and stretching out into the bit and coming from behind. The horse needs the relaxation in the neck and by his own desire, reaching out and stretching for the bit. Then the horse will really be coming from behind and over the back… Keep them coming from behind and ignore the neck… and keep helping them relax, bend and stretch and it will get better.
From one who has spent far more time then I care to admit trying to “keep” a horse on the aids by keeping them from spooking above the bit. it doesn’t work… really - even though it might look “ok”.[/QUOTE]
Only an AA, but you understand equine biomechanics better than most pros.
You have it exactly right. Any contraption that attempts to force or keep the horses head down, or bumps them in the bars if they lift their head “too high”, only serves to make them want to pry up against it and go on the forehand. You can sometimes identify horses ridden with draw reins as they will have fabulously developed rhomboideus muscles. Exactly the ones you DON’T need to strengthen.
No gadget will make a horse lower its head. There is exactly ONE thing that will cause a horse to lower its head that goes in conjunction with something else that affects us all all of the time.
So for argument’s sake, let’s say I agree with majority opinion here. Have any of you seen or been told by dressage pro to use this technique? I’d never heard of it, but in talking to friends, it’s been seen at multiple barns connected to local well known trainer. Was there some BNT clinician or was this perhaps locally developed?
I have never seen it or heard of it, to answer your question. The only gadgets I have personally seen dressage trainers use (and not necessarily my favourite trainers) are side reins or Vienna reins on the lunge, and very occasionally draw reins. Now when I boarded at a QH barn I saw all kinds of gadgets I couldn’t even have imagined!
Hmm, I think this trainer did QHs starting out. Maybe that’s origin? To be fair, the way it was done, not tight, is not the worst thing I’ve seen. I do think for retraining badly muscled horses, gadgets, used sparingly and with goal of not needing them, can be helpful, but not rehashing the whole gadgets thread. Just hadn’t seen this tool before, curious about prevalence and experiences with it.
From straight dressage trainers, the only gadgets I’ve seen used are side reins for lunging horses that understand working into the bridle without much human intervention, and schoolmasters giving seat lessons (again, horses that know how to work into the bridle). Did have an eventing instructor who liked pessoas, but she had more of a jumping background than dressage.
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8958125]
I had to look up market harbourer, lol, standing martingale in the US. So, with the horses going in this, in your experience, what were the bad habits noted? You note needing 6 months for a better topline, but were there specific behaviors due to the artificial aid or the use in lessons in general?[/QUOTE]
A market harbourer you can think of as an automatic draw rein. The rein goes from the girth through the bit to ‘d’ rings on the rein. Manual draw reins are when they go from the girth through the bit to the rider’s hands.
They are both gadgets. Dodge will go along broken necked if you let him. This means that the middle of the neck is the highest point and there is a break in the neck. You want the poll to be the highest point and that is how we now ride him. He also has his mane on 2 sides of the neck. He is not so bad as it is only on the other side up on the top third, other horses I have seen it with the hair down on this third on the other side as well. I am not talking about horses that have a double mane.
With gadgets like that you end up with horses broken necked, behind the bit, below the bit. They don’t take contact properly. They have their heads down in front but their hocks trailing out behind.
You are better off not using any gadgets when riding. Side-reins are not a gadget, are only used for lunging and it is not side reins that kill and maim horses it is people using side reins incorrectly that maim and kill horses.
[QUOTE=LilyandBaron;8958413]
Hmm, I think this trainer did QHs starting out. Maybe that’s origin? To be fair, the way it was done, not tight, is not the worst thing I’ve seen. I do think for retraining badly muscled horses, gadgets, used sparingly and with goal of not needing them, can be helpful, but not rehashing the whole gadgets thread. Just hadn’t seen this tool before, curious about prevalence and experiences with it.[/QUOTE]
hard for us to speculate on this, but I never have seen this tie down in dressage, only western.
I’m in the snaffle bit, no gadget crown though, ever.
I’m curious about the mane statement. How does the mane growing on both sides relate to correct muscle development?
[QUOTE=sortofbyx;8958497]
I’m curious about the mane statement. How does the mane growing on both sides relate to correct muscle development?[/QUOTE]
there is a theory that having mane on equal sides means the neck is equally developed, or moreso, the horse is equally muscled with no weaker side.
IMHO, it’s not factual. hair follicle direction, limb asymmetry all play into which direction the mane is apt to fall in.
Is that what it means?? You mean my horse is not just torturing me having it fall on the right side one week, the left the next and both sides the next? No matter what I do, it stays equal on both sides.
If a trainer is saying “I use this as a standing martingale that allows give when this horse is doing training sessions with their AA rider because the horse has a habit of strongly head flipping. The head flipping had a pain origin that has been 100% addressed and we are helping the horse and rider work together to work past this pain association. I don’t ride with it during training but I don’t expect this AA rider to have the same timing and comfort with head flipping at this time. This is a tool for a specific horse, during a specific time period, with a specific end goal.”
^ Sure. I can buy it.
“The horse is running around with his head in the air and needs to learn how to drop his head. Only once he learns to carry his head down can he become a dressage horse. He needs to learn manner.”
^ Oh heck no.
If a trainer goes beyond a simple snaffle and cavesson I feel like they should be able to coherently and succinctly explain why they need an additional tool. If after hearing a trainer talk about a training tool I’m not thoroughly convinced about it’s value in that situation, I’m guessing it probably falls more in the second category of shortcut.
[QUOTE=tbchick84;8958529]
Is that what it means?? You mean my horse is not just torturing me having it fall on the right side one week, the left the next and both sides the next? No matter what I do, it stays equal on both sides.[/QUOTE]
All I can tell you is that i was taught by a Grand prix rider who told me this.
It is a running joke here that when a new horse comes here you can not tell which side of the neck the horse’s mane is on. It seems to change daily.
12 months later and the horses have the whole mane on one side of the neck.
Dodge has been in work for 2 months now. We have built him up slowly as he was out of work. So ask me in 10 months time if his mane is now on one side of his neck.
It won’t happen overnight.
i will also add that i do not cut or pull their manes. I like full long manes.
Ok, I know it’s really not the point of this thread, but for your future googling purposes, it’s Market Harborough, not “harbourer” 
The beast in the flesh, if you’re curious:
[QUOTE=kashmere;8959677]
Ok, I know it’s really not the point of this thread, but for your future googling purposes, it’s Market Harborough, not “harbourer”
The beast in the flesh, if you’re curious:
http://www.tackheaven.co.uk/market-harborough/[/QUOTE]
Also called a “German Martingale.”
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8959813]
Also called a “German Martingale.”[/QUOTE]
And Olympic martingale.
Anecdotally, my horse is a prime example of how his mane lays in shape vs. out of shape. When he was fit and in working form, his name would lay all on one side of his neck and his crest was nicely muscled and filled out. Now he’s older, and been in light to no work for two years, you can tell where he’s lost the development over his neck and the middle of his mane flops on the wrong side, while top and bottom are right. Six months to a year of correct work, it will probably fix itself.
And that correct work in no way, shape, or form includes using side reins as a tie down. Maybe Vienna reins for lungeing, or draw reins if we hack out on a cold breezy day and I need an e-brake.
Honestly COTH is the only place I’ve found dressage trainers that never use anything besides the occasional side rein. Every single real life dressage trainer has a wide range of tools that they use occasionally for specific reasons. Judicious use of training equipment can be helpful in showing the horse (or rider) the correct way to move.
In the case of the standing martingale I would not use one unless I was in danger of being clocked in the face, however I have used a Kavalkade lunging aid with great success in teaching horses to lower their heads and work over their back.
I am in Australia.
I started in an Eventing pony club and started coming last in everything and worked my way up to becoming an instructor. Then I was a trail ride guide while being paid to get my EFA level I Instructors certificate. Then I worked at Willow Park School of Classical Equitation in NSW as a Level I training for my level II under a level III. Now at Dalson Park in Qld.
Other that the German martingale on the school horses for beginners at Dalson Park. None of those places use/d gadgets other than properly fitted martingales at pony club and side reins and a chambon for lunging at Willow Park and a Pessoa for lunging at Dalson Park.
Willow park no longer exists I don’t think. It is one of the places Franz Mairinger taught dressage when he introduced Dressage to Australia. He was from the Spanish riding School and they only use side reins for lunging and side reins are the only thing that is not classed as a gadget.
Side reins do not kill and maim horses. Incorrect use of side reins kill and maim horses.
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8960254]
Side reins do not kill and maim horses. Incorrect use of side reins kill and maim horses.[/QUOTE]
I never understood this. Horses are prey animals and you are attaching a (probably) sturdy strap that won’t likely break and attaching the head to the body where it is in close proximity to the legs. Any horse can trip, get a leg caught, get startled and hit the side reins.
This isn’t even getting into the dressage part of too long or too short.
I only use breakaway SR and NEVER EVER EVER when riding.
