[QUOTE=slc2;3475853]
Can you explain exactly what your last sentence is trying to suggest?[/QUOTE]
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young…because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today’s day and age…AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened…
that’s all I will say.
[QUOTE=Sabine;3476526]
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young…because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today’s day and age…AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened…
that’s all I will say.[/QUOTE]
OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble.
[QUOTE=sm;3475881]
You can cross US off the list. He still owes money in the court case he lost here, he’s not showing his face in this country. Nor does the USET want a coach convicted of criminal charges, wouldn’t touch him with a ten foot pole becasue they could never get their fundraisers to be successful…
Thanks for the laugh, Theo.[/QUOTE]
The court case was a CIVIL matter, not criminal. He challenged the court’s jurisdiction over him, lost that motion, and did not appear for the bench trial because he decided to continue opposing jurisdiction and the strategy was to appeal the jurisdictional ruling to the appellate court. A default judgment was entered by the district court in his absence. The appellate court affirmed the district court’s jurisdictional ruling, and did not disturb the default judgment.
To my knowledge, NO criminal charges were ever brought against him here; there was NO “criminal conviction.”
And how do you know he did not pay the amount awarded in judgment in the civil case? Or if he did not, that it is not time-barred (off of the top of my head I do not know what the statute of limitations is for that judgment in that jurisdiction). He HAS been to the United States in the recent past. So obviously that is not a concern for him. And Anky reportedly makes approximately $6 million a year. I think they could probably afford to pay the judgment.
I truly hope this man is not even considered as the Coach for the US Team. I don’t care how many horses he and Anky have taken to the top - their horses don’t ever seem to have a relaxed eye in competition. Let them stay in Holland.
And while Sjef’s court case was civil and not criminal - it speaks to the ethics of the man ( when you read the details of the case. He clearly had no ethics.
Well - if it’s ONLY a civil action, and Anky earns a gazillion dollars a year, then it must be just fine and dandy. Sjef is the epiome of political correctness and has the morals of a lawyer. We should elect him President.
“This tort action for fraud and breach of fiduciary duty was brought by plaintiffs, John Neal and his daughter Lea Anne, residents of Tennessee, against Sjef Janssen, a citizen of Belgium.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html
Fraud
Fraud is the act of deliberately deceiving another individual or group in order to secure an unfair or unlawful personal gain at the expense of that party. Fraud can be a civil and or a criminal offense. Civil action can be brought against a person who has committed fraud in order to seek compensation for the damages caused by the fraud. Fraud is also considered a white collar crime that is taken very seriously by the federal government and all fifty states.
A white collar crime is an offense that takes place in a professional or business setting. Many white collar crimes are fraud crimes, though there are additional crimes that fall under this category. There are many different types of fraud that are illegal in the United States, most of which fall under these general categories: consumer fraud, employment fraud, and fraud that is committed by a consumer against a business or government institution.
Most types of fraud are considered felony crimes that are aggressively prosecuted in the criminal justice system. A person who is convicted of fraud may face incarceration, punitive fines, restitution, probation, community service, and other penalties. The consequences for fraud will depend on the nature, scope, and severity of the offense, whether the fraud was committed by an individual or group, and the state or federal laws that apply to the case.
Consumer fraud has taken center stage in the minds of many consumers, policy makers, and businesses nationwide. The government estimates that more than twenty-five million Americans- or eleven percent of the population- are the victims of consumer fraud every year. With advances in internet technology, the crimes of internet fraud, credit card fraud, identity theft, and similar crimes can be carried out with greater ease and anonymity than ever before. Other consumer fraud crimes can include: securities fraud, mail fraud, telemarketing fraud, and more.
Employment, or occupational fraud is defined as, "a clandestine activity that violates an employee’s fiduciary duties to the company or the company’s customers or clientele. Embezzlement, trade secret fraud, larceny and other crimes are common types of employment fraud. Occupational fraud can also include criminal fraud committed by public officials such as bribery, public corruption, and government fraud.
Fraud can also be carried out by individuals with the intent to deceive a business or government institution. These types of fraud can include insurance fraud, tax evasion, counterfeiting, healthcare fraud, bankruptcy fraud, fraud relating to government social programs (like Medicare and Social security) and more.
I really don’t think Sjef would step foot in the U.S. unless he wanted to be put back on the longe line! No one here would have a clue who he is, so he’d have to start from the ground up. His training methods would be met with disdain, and the results just wouldn’t cut it. In short, I don’t think he has what it takes for the U.S. scene. It would be a very rude awakening for him!
"Originally Posted by Sabine
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young…because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today’s day and age…AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened…
that’s all I will say.
OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble"
You think you’re the only two people in the world that know this? Give me a break.
I laugh my a** off when people claim certain trainers are so ‘Xenophon-y’ and sweet and kind and undyingly classical. It’s ridiculous. Hyperflexion is probably one of the most benign that has come along in a long, long time. As far as the ‘oh-my-god-what-the-hell-is-he-doing’ factor, I far prefer it to a lot of the other crap that has been done in the past.
Not really, canticle.
First of all, you aren’t exactly on the list of people who would be working with a national dressage coach, and you wouldn’t be deciding anything about Jensen being on a longe line.
Further, you are constantly declaring that what you think is what everyone else in America, or the COH bb, thinks. I can assure you, your thoughts are very unique. This constant declaration that you’re thinking the same as others - there are pills for that.
Second of all, there is a sizeable group of people in the United States who don’t think rollkur is wrong or evil and kills horses. AND who don’t think it makes horses tense - at all. You can argue all you want about whether they should believe that or not, but it’s a very simple fact - THEY BELIEVE IT.
And to be honest, most of them are a lot closer to having anything to do with a national coach than canticle is.
Third, Sjeff actually rides very well, and he has a much better seat and technique than most people who ride dressage, and he trained several very successful top level horses.
He was in European championship, which is widely agreed to be far, far more difficult than any World or Olympic games could ever be - to get into and to place in.
The European dressage power nations can field a dozen 4 man teams each who score better than the Americans. The only thing that lets us in the door at the Olympics and the worlds is that those nations can only send one team each, and frankly, that it IS team based, even then, we usually only can present ONE horse and rider pair that can get into the top 5 or 10.
We would get buried in Individual competition in that sort of thing (I mean European championship).
And quite a few of the people in the USA who DON’T think rollkur is so evil, have a lot more to say about who coaches the USA than you do.
It is, in fact, a definite possibility that the American powers that be would pick Jensen. It is alot more to do with who won recently than ‘Oh, my, he does hyperflexion’.
You can say all day that that’s wrong, but that is the bottom line.
I doubt it will happen more because of personalities and politics, than anyone being hot under the collar about rollkur, but I think wanting to get a gold medal can also make a LOT of strange bedfellows.
I still doubt Jensen’s conditions would be met sufficiently for his requirements, by any contract the USA powers would offer him. I think he would be wanting more say in what goes on as far as which horses and which riders, and that would piss a lot of ‘old favorites’ off.
Too, I am not sure the riders involved would get along with him. They are used to having their own personal coaches.
Because of that, I think even if Jensen didn’t ever coach anyone to do hyperflexion again, they would STILL have a lot to argue about with him, just because of the situation with their private trainers.
There are diehards here who have alot to do with those decisions who won’t be in favor of a coach that uses alot of hyperflexion. But there are others who don’t care.
I’m not sure Axel Steiner would be the first choice, either. It would need to be someone who has very recently coached a gold medal team at a WEG or Olympics. I think that’s the main criteria.
My personal choice would be Bemmelmans, but I am not sure we would ‘lower’ ourselves to use the same coach Mexico did.
[QUOTE=slc2;3476663]
"Originally Posted by Sabine
You apparently never visited overthere when you were young…because the methods and the rules and stuff that happened then- would not be looked upon kindly in today’s day and age…AT ALL! There are many stories about many famous old trainers- some told to me by my mom who was there when it happened…
that’s all I will say.
OMG Sabine Now you have bursted their bubble"
You think you’re the only two people in the world that know this? Give me a break.
I laugh my a** off when people claim certain trainers are so ‘Xenophon-y’ and sweet and kind and undyingly classical. It’s ridiculous. Hyperflexion is probably one of the most benign that has come along in a long, long time. As far as the ‘oh-my-god-what-the-hell-is-he-doing’ factor, I far prefer it to a lot of the other crap that has been done in the past.
Not really, canticle.
First of all, you aren’t exactly on the list of people who would be working with a national dressage coach, and you wouldn’t be deciding anything about Jensen being on a longe line.
Further, you are constantly declaring that what you think is what everyone else in America, or the COH bb, thinks. I can assure you, your thoughts are very unique. This constant declaration that you’re thinking the same as others - there are pills for that.
Second of all, there is a sizeable group of people in the United States who don’t think rollkur is wrong or evil and kills horses. AND who don’t think it makes horses tense - at all. You can argue all you want about whether they should believe that or not, but it’s a very simple fact - THEY BELIEVE IT.
And to be honest, most of them are a lot closer to having anything to do with a national coach than canticle is.
Third, Sjeff actually rides very well, and he has a much better seat and technique than most people who ride dressage, and he trained several very successful top level horses.
He was in European championship, which is widely agreed to be far, far more difficult than any World or Olympic games could ever be - to get into and to place in.
The European dressage power nations can field a dozen 4 man teams each who score better than the Americans. The only thing that lets us in the door at the Olympics and the worlds is that those nations can only send one team each, and frankly, that it IS team based, even then, we usually only can present ONE horse and rider pair that can get into the top 5 or 10.
We would get buried in Individual competition in that sort of thing (I mean European championship).
And quite a few of the people in the USA who DON’T think rollkur is so evil, have a lot more to say about who coaches the USA than you do.
It is, in fact, a definite possibility that the American powers that be would pick Jensen. It is alot more to do with who won recently than ‘Oh, my, he does hyperflexion’.
You can say all day that that’s wrong, but that is the bottom line.
I doubt it will happen more because of personalities and politics, than anyone being hot under the collar about rollkur, but I think wanting to get a gold medal can also make a LOT of strange bedfellows.
I still doubt Jensen’s conditions would be met sufficiently for his requirements, by any contract the USA powers would offer him. I think he would be wanting more say in what goes on as far as which horses and which riders, and that would piss a lot of ‘old favorites’ off.
Too, I am not sure the riders involved would get along with him. They are used to having their own personal coaches.
Because of that, I think even if Jensen didn’t ever coach anyone to do hyperflexion again, they would STILL have a lot to argue about with him, just because of the situation with their private trainers.
There are diehards here who have alot to do with those decisions who won’t be in favor of a coach that uses alot of hyperflexion. But there are others who don’t care.
I’m not sure Axel Steiner would be the first choice, either. It would need to be someone who has very recently coached a gold medal team at a WEG or Olympics. I think that’s the main criteria.
My personal choice would be Bemmelmans, but I am not sure we would ‘lower’ ourselves to use the same coach Mexico did.[/QUOTE]
Why didn’t I think of Jean Bemmelmans. Yes… A gentleman “pür sang” , an open mind, and someone who speaks fluently English and has been around the block. And…very well respected in the Equestrian world by everyone.
Theo
[QUOTE=Mike Matson;3474468]
Charles de Kunffy, The Ethics and Passions of Dressage[/QUOTE]
I am a professional coach. I saw Charles de Kunffy in a clinic. He had four people longeing in a tiny arena who were running into one another the whole time! Talk about safety issues! He wouldn’t have passed a Coach 1 exam in Canada let me tell you. He talked like he was on Vallium and seemed totally bewildered the entire time. He showed no common sense whatsoever! It was ridiculous how scary his ‘words of wisdom’ were to these poor people. I was horrified. I would never read a word of his after seeing him in person.:eek:
slick, how on earth is “Sjeff Jensen”!? You might want to learn his name before you sing his praises!
My thoughts are just as mainstream/legitimate as anybody’s. I will not be silenced by people like you or Theo (i.e. training level railbirds). :lol:
Rollkur is not evil – it’s just bad training. The results are all the proof I need.
[QUOTE=canticle;3476646]
I really don’t think Sjef would step foot in the U.S. unless he wanted to be put back on the longe line! No one here would have a clue who he is, so he’d have to start from the ground up. His training methods would be met with disdain, and the results just wouldn’t cut it. In short, I don’t think he has what it takes for the U.S. scene. It would be a very rude awakening for him![/QUOTE]
I think Sjef has already seen whom you people have chosen as president (- a man who greets foreign dignitaries like our Prime Minister Harper as “Yo Harper” at a formal State Affair!) and would say ‘no thank you’ to the U.S. scene! :eek:
‘charles de kunffy coaching people in longe line circles running into eachother…would not get a canadian coaching license’.
that’s the beauty of being a self defined expert. you don’t NEED a license.
i seriously doubt de kunffy would ever be considered for coaching any national team. i’m not sure how anyone could seriously think that would be possible.
‘before singing his praises’.
you’re completely gone round the bend if you think i’m singing his praises. i’m saying what i think is going on, i am not praising ANYONE.
keepthepiece, love the political jibe, but money talks, and the other stuff walks.
yes, theo, bemelmans would be great. i don’t know what would make him want to, though. wow he did good with pujals.
Is this discussion still going on 
We want Sjef and we also make him president :yes:
[QUOTE=BahamaMama;3476864]
Is this discussion still going on
We want Sjef and we also make him president :yes:[/QUOTE]
Finally! A horse on the White House lawn!! Very politically correct too - Salinero will keep the grass cut. :winkgrin::
[QUOTE=ise@ssl;3476599]
I
And while Sjef’s court case was civil and not criminal - it speaks to the ethics of the man ( when you read the details of the case. He clearly had no ethics.[/QUOTE]
The case was never adjudicated on the merits. He only ever made a jurisdictional challenge, which he lost. A default judgment is automatically entered in favor of the plaintiff when a defendant does not show up for trial (as one might do if challenging the court’s jurisdiction). For all I know, he may be really slimey. But it is defamatory to state that he has a criminal conviction here. (Plus, COTH BB does expressly forbid making such statements unless there are publicly-available documents supporting them). There really is a HUGE difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction. And if the truth is bad enough on its own, why exagerrate?
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3477015]
The case was never adjudicated on the merits. He only ever made a jurisdictional challenge, which he lost. A default judgment is automatically entered in favor of the plaintiff when a defendant does not show up for trial (as one might do if challenging the court’s jurisdiction). For all I know, he may be really slimey. But it is defamatory to state that he has a criminal conviction here. (Plus, COTH BB does expressly forbid making such statements unless there are publicly-available documents supporting them). There really is a HUGE difference between a civil judgment and a criminal conviction. And if the truth is bad enough on its own, why exagerrate?[/QUOTE]
Glad you are around- nice to have the dry analytical mind of a lawyer on board!
But didn’t he went to Vegas afterwards and even married there ?
Good point. Edited post, now reads FRAUD instead of criminal charges. The jury returned a verdict in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $250,000 compensatory damages and $250,000 in punitive damages. Somehow FRAUD sounds much worse to me, but there you have it:
"You can cross US off the list. The USET doesn’t want a coach convicted of fraud, wouldn’t touch him with a ten foot pole because they could never get their fundraisers to be successful…
Thanks for the laugh, Theo."
Didn’t he have more then one fraud case he lost in the US?
Who cares, the point is he would never be asked by the USET for a head coach position.
So his contract with KNHS ended, and he is looking? I’m sure something will turn up!
Good point. Edited post, now reads FRAUD instead of criminal charges. The jury returned a verdict in favor of plaintiffs in the amount of $250,000 compensatory damages and $250,000 in punitive damages. Somehow FRAUD sounds much worse to me, but there you have it:
"You can cross US off the list. The USET doesn’t want a coach convicted of fraud, wouldn’t touch him with a ten foot pole because they could never get their fundraisers to be successful…
Thanks for the laugh, Theo."
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
