Again, the BROWS!
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@Libby2563 how is your sleepless boy doing? I’m desperately combing threads to help my retired 25 yo Hunter pony mare with ppid, and came across this, which has a lot of similarities to what my girl has done…I’d love an update if you have a chance. Thank you! 
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@mfglickman, sorry for the delayed reply! I had to set aside some time to list everything out. Here’s an update from the last 11 months…hopefully I am remembering everything:
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Sadly I had to terminate the trial and send the sweet donkey back to the rescue. Not her fault she was so seductive, but my 28-year-old gelding just would. not. chill. the. f. out. He would corner the donkey to keep the others away, she would break free and trot across the field, he would follow her, the TB would follow him, and the young horse would realize everyone was having fun without him and chase after. All day long. Several times hooves were flying and I was worried the poor little girl would get kicked in the head by accident. So, she left and the boys all found their brains again. She’s not the first mare the old man has been turned out with, but apparently those long ears were just too much?
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Over the winter I tried the sleepless horse on a calming supplement for two months. SmartCalm Ultra I think? Zero effect.
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I got him on a regular bodywork schedule starting in January. Nothing crazy found and no apparent impact.
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In March/April he got a series of three sessions of neck/back shockwave. He was reactive to the treatment on the right lower cervical area, but he didn’t show any drastic change or improvement afterwards. He did get a routine mid-season soundness check in July and the vet said he felt super in his back, so that’s something I guess.
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In May I got his SI joint injected. He’s always been a bit of an idiosyncratic mover behind so I thought why not give it a try… you guessed it, zero effect (other than possibly contributing to the good mid-season check).
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In August he was diagnosed with a very minor soft tissue injury (which has already healed in two months, according to ultrasound!) so he moved to a rehab barn because I knew he would be upset stall-rested at home alone. This was the big experiment I had been wanting to try: a total change in environment. Instead of 12-24 hour turnout with a couple other horses, he has been in a barn with a couple dozen others around him and no specific buddies and no one to feel responsible for (which I truly think is the key to his hypervigilance). I gave the BO a heads up about his sleep deprivation and within a few days she said he had lay down to sleep! I was happy but also a little crushed that he couldn’t feel safe to do that at home. However, as time has passed I am not entirely convinced he is actually sleeping there either. She has been inferring sleep from flattened manure or sawdust on his belly, rather than actually seeing him nap. I’ve thought those things meant he was sleeping before too but when I played back my stall camera recordings I found that it was from falling. He does seem very happy there at my weekly visits, and is more snuggly than at home. However, it’s 90 min away and $$$, so he can’t stay there forever.
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Just a few weeks ago he tested positive for PPID, after two different vets told me not to bother testing because he was “too young” (15
) and “not fat.” It’s interesting that you mention PPID too–do you think that has something to do with your girl’s sleep deprivation? My guy has started on pergolide. Wouldn’t it be amazing if that was the key to this whole sleep deprivation thing?? I don’t have high hopes though. Have you checked out the Horses with Narcolepsy and Sleep Deprivation group on FB?
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Ugh - I’m so sorry this is still unanswered. Just fyi, my 12 year old tested positive for PPID and has been on Prascend for 2 months. I am definitely seeing a positive change in him. He seems way more comfortable in his body, and is losing weight (that’s a good thing).
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Another update to ask for input or even just commiseration. This will be long, so thank you to anyone who reads. This condition is so frustrating. Now that Z has been home from rehab for a couple of weeks, it has become apparent how much happier and more comfortable he seemed at the rehab barn. A lot of the behavior I thought was “just him” wasn’t apparent during my weekly visits to the rehab barn. At home he spends a lot of time staring around into the distance (what I call “looking for lions”), walking/trotting in and out of his stall into the run behind it in between bites of hay or grain, not eating because he’s too busy staring, etc. When handled or ridden he is a perfect gentleman, and I was able to hack him out on the buckle during our first ride in three months. But left to his own devices, he’s an anxious mess. He also hates being groomed at home, which is interesting because at the rehab barn he really enjoyed it. I did do Nexium for the transition home, and I’ve also recently started him on Smart GI Ultra at vet’s recommendation.
At the end of the day I really have to think that the differences are: 1) his stall and 2) the number of other horses around. At home he has a 12x12 stall with a rear Dutch door that is typically open to the run behind the barn, so he has in/out access. Stall dividers are bars above kickboards, as is the front overlooking the aisle. The rehab barn was a bank barn where he had an interior stall with solid walls, with the only view out over a gate into the aisle. By sticking his head into the aisle he could only see small squares of the outside world at either end of the aisle. Of course my human mind thinks the open, airy barn with in/out access, lots of ventilation, etc is better. But I think he felt more secure there. When I picked him up, the BO said had been able to observe him lying recumbent for up to 15 minutes in the mid-morning. He would also lean in a corner to nap upright like he does at home, but she said they never saw him sleep crash. He did have some hock and fetlock rubs so it’s hard to say for sure. But I think the difference in his attitude must mean something! I’ve tried locking him in his stall for a few hours at a time with the back door closed and the window covered. Some days that chills him out and other days he walks circles in his stall, so it’s not a reliable solution.
The second part of the difference I suspect was having 20+ other horses around vs just one or two buddies. I really think that he feels responsible for the safety and conduct of those two buddies, who are pretty laid back and clearly can’t be trusted to take care of themselves, since when he was gone they would both lie down and take mid-morning naps together. (Who was watching for lions!?!? Nobody, it seems.) There are farms with other horses on three sides of us, but I think they are just far enough away to not provide a sense of security and just close enough to provide stress in the form of things to stare at. At the rehab barn he wasn’t getting turned out and didn’t have a particular friend, though one had to be moved from the stall next door when he got too attached. But in general, I don’t think he felt as responsible for everyone’s safety because 1) he couldn’t really see much of the outside world anyway and 2) there were a lot of other horses around to also watch for the proverbial lions.
So, I’m starting to think that if I want him to be happy, I have to board him out. It sucks. I don’t like giving up control of his care, and the additional expense will be significant. I also won’t know if it’s better until I try it for a few months, and even then it might be tough without cameras to catch him sleep crashing. But I can’t watch him be miserable at home now that I know there may be an alternative. The answer may be to try for a half lease once he is back in full work, to lighten the time and financial burden on me. He’s an accomplished Prelim horse who is a super safe, brave jumper, and other eventers tell me he will be in demand. If the right person came along I think at this point I would even consider selling, because it seems unlikely he’d be happy retiring here someday.
This week in reflecting on all this, I finally reached the point of desperation and tried an animal communicator for the first time. Some things she said that rang true:
- He is okay with being called Z for short (I had only told her his full name, but it’s kind of a mouthful and Z is an obvious nickname). As sort of a test, I asked her if he knows what my husband calls him (“Ziggy”–if she had known that, I would have been impressed). Her answer was, “I asked him a general question about other names, and he said someone called him ‘Sh!thead.’” I told my husband about it and he was like, “Yeah, I call him that all the time because he’s a spaz and he’s mean to the other horses!”
- He is feeling sound and comfortable now, but if he had to rank his recent physical issues, he would say LF, RF, then RH being “a little stiff.” This does track with how he flexed and blocked out before rest and treatment. She said he showed her the RF “regular tendon” and LF DDFT though, which weren’t the issues. I don’t think he knows the names though so that might be more about her understanding of anatomy than his.
- With respect to the farrier, “He is happy with his front feet. His back feet took a little bit but now everything matches.” He has tricky feet. The past three months, after some changes by the farrier, his front feet look the absolute best they ever have, both in terms of angles and hoof quality. The hind feet got long during one cycle when I pulled the shoes myself and was hesitant to trim too much, and I would say they are just now kind of recovering. The hinds have been better before though.
- “He is far-sighted and is more comfortable seeing things 10-15 feet in front of him.” He’s not a spooky horse but when he does spook, it’s basically always at things on the ground within that distance from him. However, she also said near-sighted horses are the ones who get buddy sour, and he does have some herdbound tendencies.
- I asked if he likes the horses he lives with and she asked for their names. She said that he said, “Petey is a character. The other one just kind of hangs out.” That is 100% true. Then she went on to say that Petey is also far-sighted and helps him with the night shift (meaning standing watch). I have never seen Petey show any sentinel tendencies and he needs regular work on separation anxiety, so that doesn’t track with him being far-sighted according to her.
Some things that seemed off or of mixed value:
- He didn’t think he was a very good racehorse, it wasn’t important to him, and during one of his last starts he reared and hit his head on the gate, so he still worries sometimes about hitting his head again. He actually had a pretty good, though brief, career and won $90k in only five starts that included two seconds and a first. The only reason he stopped was that he had a mild tendon bow and his breeder/owner’s wife wanted him for eventing, which is a thing she does with a lot of their TBs.
- He also didn’t think he was very good at eventing and felt it was kind of a default position, whatever that means. “He’s just trying to get the job done.” He is a badass XC horse and jumper in general, and seems to enjoy jumping and galloping, so this seems off.
- “He’s glad to get back into work.” Honestly I think he would be perfectly content never being ridden again. He’s good at his job, but I don’t think he’s one of those horses that needs one.
- “When I asked him about being tired, he said he has a bit of an ulcer and that’s what’s making him tired.” (My first question to her trying to lead towards the sleep deprivation thing was just to ask him if he’s tired.) When we treated for ulcers last fall, my husband did catch him sleeping in the field shortly after the start of treatment. The vets had said it’s possible lying down could push the acid up onto the ulcers, though they didn’t regard it as a common cause of sleep deprivation (though I did recently see an article about sleep deprivation in the USDF magazine in which one of those same vets listed ulcers as one of the top causes of sleep deprivation). Re-scope confirmed that the ulcers healed in a month of Gastro-Gard and sucralfate, but his sleep crashing never went away.
- His liver is bloated and he needs a liver cleanse.
- She said repeatedly that he’s not tired other than from his liver. I finally outright said that he sleep crashes, and that seemed surprising to her. I told her that he started lying down after the first month at the rehab barn so I’ve been trying to figure out what he liked better there. (This was pretty close to the end of the call anyway, so I decided to just put all my cards on the table.) She said we bed the same so it’s not a bedding issue (more or less true). She then said the only difference is at home he feels like he has to be a lookout, whereas at the rehab place he was able to lie down because there were other horses and he was mostly inside. Those are details I didn’t provide, but I think it’s reasonable to assume that a rehab barn will have more than two other horses and that he will be mostly in a stall.
- I asked if he wants to go live at a boarding barn with more other horses around. She said he wants to be at home “at least through the holidays”–because horses have concepts of the holidays!? She said he said, “I feel safe at the house. I really would rather stay there. There was no difference other than at the other place there were more horses. I don’t want to leave.” Meh. He isn’t striking me as feeling particularly safe or happy here.
- The reason he initially stopped sleeping was before I got him, he got cast in the middle of the night once and no one could help him. No idea if that ever happened or not.
- “The other horses missed him while he was at the rehab barn.” Pretty sure that’s not true, since he is such a bully. But hey, she was only talking to him and maybe he is deluding himself!
So overall, I didn’t get any answers and didn’t feel super impressed–other than by the Sh!thead comment, which is just funny! (My husband said he thinks all horses get called that on a regular basis because horses are a-holes, so it doesn’t mean anything.) Not gonna lie, I was kind of holding out a little bit of hope for some miraculous insight, but in the end I am really thinking his issues are environmental and that he’s not cut out for life on a very small farm. Sigh.
ETA: The other thing I am thinking about doing was going full-out with the Warwick Schiller groundwork or maybe trying Tristan Tucker. Both of them seem to have some aspects of teaching horses to control their own emotions, be more comfortable, and reduce their own anxiety. I had a WS subscription for a while but was mainly focused on my young horse’s separation anxiety (for which his methods were pretty darn helpful). The TT YouTube videos I’ve watched haven’t impressed me as much. Might be worth his free trial though or resubscribing to WS and really committing to it for a month or so. Any thoughts?
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Your observation about him not being able to relax because he has to keep watch resonates with me. I also have three horses at home. My younger mare, who I’ve had the longest, has almost always been the alpha mare wherever she’s lived, but she didn’t really want to be. When I moved her home and adopted another mare (who I suspect was alpha when she was younger but age and failing eyesight and hearing have caught up with her), my younger mare was fine. But, when I bought my gelding, he very obviously took over the alpha position and my younger mare is clearly so much happier and relaxed. So there’s something to be said for this.
Also, not that this likely helps, but my older mare also used to sleep crash. She had to wear fetlock guards because the fronts of her fetlocks would get scraped all the time from her falling over. At some point, however, she stopped doing so. And now as I’m writing this, I wonder if it stopped not long after I brought my gelding home … so maybe another safety concern…?
Sounds like you just need another horse at home. 
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Also, I have the TT membership. I can’t seem to get past the first three sessions. I just lose interest. So maybe go with the WS instead.
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I would definately go with Warwick Schiller – his CCTCIF (Creating connection through change in focus) and SSAP (standing still and present) among other important things (all done in order as per Warwick’s attunement teachings) has made a HUGE difference in all my horses but especially one of them who, over time, developed so much separation anxiety and general anxiety that he began weaving and stall walking and was unrideable.
He’s a different horse now – back to his old self but better – has amazing self confidence and self regulation abilities. I implement Warwick’s methods every single second I’m with my horses – they live at home with me so it’s easy (no outside distractions) to show them I’m present and aware, always.
Tristan Tucker’s stuff just seemed like confusing, messy, overblown variations on Warwick’s teachings.
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Man, you’ve worked SO hard for this guy. What an interesting and frustrating case. Is it worth trying to close up a stall to see if he likes having less visibility when in at your place?
Just out of curiosity, did you use the same communicator that @endlessclimb did for her horse? Maybe it’s just one of those weird things but two stories about two horses that both say they can’t see stuff close up is strange! Although maybe most horses are far sighted…? I guess it would make sense if they evolved to better see far away things.
Between that and the liver cleanse comment, I bet it was. 
Hiby?
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Yes!! I missed your posts about that though. I’ll have to look it up.
Good suggestion! I’ve tried that, and some days it does chill him out a little but others he gets even more worked up, even if the other horses are completely relaxed and there doesn’t seem to be anything interesting going on.
When they’re turned out and he’s not eating he tends to park with his bum against one short-end exterior wall of the shed, so that nothing can sneak up on him I guess and he can keep watch in all other directions. It’s very important to him to be able to see. I have wondered if his eyesight is deteriorating at all, but the New Bolton ophthalmologists didn’t find anything other than a small cataract he’s had for at least 5 years. It could be causing issues of course but we really don’t know. He can certainly see jumps and terrain very well!
Most of the time when he’s staring I can’t see what he might be staring at, though of course sometimes there are neighbors’ horses, tractors, deer, etc.
@danacat, so cool that you’ve had such good results! I found his videos to be really enlightening and paradigm-shifting as well. I spent a lot more time on the exercises with my young horse than this horse, and they did help a lot with focus and separation anxiety. The SSAP alone is super powerful!
With this horse I’ve done some SSAP, CCTCIF, matching steps, and rabbit practice (maybe just my term–basically inciting a bit of a reaction and letting him practice resetting). At first it took forever for him to let down after a pretty mild stimulus, like 15+ min of twitching to get to the first lick/chew. Even after just one session of that he got much better about letting go. I had noticed before my WS subscription that he has one whisker that’s almost always twitching, at least whenever I’m close enough to see it. I don’t know if that means anything about his nervous system.
Anyway, I don’t know if I just need to put more time in and maybe re-subscribe. My dilemma is that he’s quite good at all the exercises, and when in-hand or under saddle, focus isn’t really a problem. I’ve done some CCTCIF when he’s staring or worked up, and that does break the cycle, but it hasn’t translated to improvements when I’m not there. (I have cameras in the barn so I’ve fantasized about some sort of remote-controlled flag that I could use when I’m not there, but even if I could rig it somehow I think the timing would be too clumsy over WiFi.) Maybe I just need to persist with more of the same exercises?
I know you tried a beautiful donkey companion - can you try an older gelding who is just the quiet boss type? Even on loan to see if it makes a difference?
Remote controlled flag! Haha! I love that idea.
So, my retiree was this–until Z came along and pushed him down the totem pole with his endless micromanaging. I’m open to it if you know any though! The hurdle to permanently adding full-sized herd members, other than the expense, is that I only have 3 acres of pasture and 3 stalls, and I already have 3 horses. They live out 24/7 fall through spring so it’s less of an issue right now, but when summer comes I’d have to figure something out to get everyone out of the heat and bugs.
In case you haven’t seen this…Warwick helping horses with sleep deprevation:
Thank you! Yes, I’ve seen that though not recently so I will definitely re-watch. He always says not to have expectations that his work will help horses sleep, but it’s hard not to at least have hope, yaknow?
I did spend some time yesterday morning revisiting CCTCIF with this horse while he was in turnout, and it was interesting. After just a few flag uses he started shifting his focus as soon as I took a step, and then all it took was a weight shift. A few reps after that he walked over to say hello, leaving the hay (admittedly the dregs of the last bale). Since he was in arms reach I decided to try some scratching for connection and SSAP (basically just redirecting his focus with the flag if his eyes/ears/attention get fixated on something in the distance for too long). After a while of that I walked away and he went to eat grass.
Then I walked back out and he immediately lifted his head and left the grass to walk back over to me. He extends his nose politely and when I put my hand out to meet him, he often has an immediate lick/chew. I’m never sure if he likes the reassurance of the hello or if my hands/gloves just smell like treats! So we did more of the same, but things at the neighbors’ got a little more interesting and commanded some more alarmed focus of his (humans and blanketed horses walking around in a slightly different manner–egads!). Twice when I held the flag out in the opposite direction while he was super fixated he actually stomped a front foot in response and acted slightly pissed off at the flag, which is new and weird. I wasn’t waving it or asking him to move away from it at all, just holding it out the side from behind my back like I had been.
I thought that response was interesting, and right afterwards there was 5-10 min where he stopped moving or looking around completely, and his eyes and lower lip got uncharacteristically soft. I just stood and tried to “keep watch” for him while doing triangle breathing. When he came out of that he dropped his head to the grass/ground near his feet and I had a moment of hope that he was thinking about lying down. He walked away to eat grass though and when I tried to do CCTCIF with the flag one more time he completely ignored it until I got very big with the flag, so after that I called it quits. I guess he was done by that point, which is fine because my fingers and toes were frozen. I don’t know if any of it was progress, but it was interesting and as I think WS would say, it was a change. Lord knows this horse needs a change!
It’s tough with work, the short days, and no large lighted area, but I’ll try to do more of that with him (just when the weather turns super cold of course!). I’m open to suggestions on how I’m applying the WS stuff, especially since it’s been a while.
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I think the video I sent you deals specifically with ‘matching steps’ for the sleep issue. I didn’t watch the whole thing but that was the beginning gist. I guess it’s powerful for some horses with unusual issues. I still do it on occasion – just because.
Yep, the short days and freezing temps + wind, really puts a damper on everything!
The change you got with your guy sounds encouraging but I’ve found that CCTCIF only works well on horses who either have seperation anxiety (two of mine did) or they don’t want to be with you, so your guy might not need it.
I think that ‘looking where they look’ – being super aware like a good herd mate – is magic. I do this all the time. Makes for some very relaxed horses.
I agree.
