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Small animal vet rant

Around The Farm
#321

[QUOTE=JSwan;4215392]
The attitude I refer to is that which I quoted. The “screw you the public has no right to question our charges or business practices.” [/QUOTE]

I have that attitude? Is that my quote? Don’t think so - that is your interpretation.

Didn’t I read a lot of comments by you on the sustainable farming thread? Wasn’t your general opinion that if there is a demand for these services/products than what is the “big agribusiness” beef with sustainable farming? The products cost more to produce and therefore cost more but if people “want” that option then they certainly deserve the option.

This is no different… why are you so unhappy that some people want these services even if you don’t?

#322

Calling you on the carpet on this one. I have not insulted any of you personally yet have taken a barage of personal judgement. Start citing examples of exactly this from anything in this thread please.

#323

[QUOTE=AnotherRound;4215689]
Maybe Dr. J is right. Maybe its not her personality which is so offensive to these readers and small animal owners. Maybe its just her practices which we find so offensive.

Nah. Its her personality, too.[/QUOTE]

Are you one of my clients? I don’t think you know anything about my practices or my personality ( which is one my strengths, sorry to disappoint you!:winkgrin:). Once again, these are facts, not anything I made up to aggrevate the folks at the CoTH that are irritated about SA medicine.

Ever hear that one about “shooting the messenger”?

( Notice I am not making any judgements about your personality BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW and will not judge you via a few posts on an internet BB:D)

#324

I think it’s a pretty accurate inference.

But you did not understand what I was trying to convey in the sustainable farming thread. My disagreement with Bluey had nothing to do with services and costs. It had more to do with industry or a particular profession having complete control over an individual’s choices. Her reply was that the industry knows what’s best for the people and that dissent was useless - and ridiculed or attempted to frighten into silence those who did not always care for the methods and practices used. Gee. Sound familiar?

I asserted that consolidation of power and food production had the potential for abuse, chaos and disease on a larger scale since consolidation increases risk, and that people had the right to not only dissent, but to question whether or not those with control should retain control.

In reality I don’t have much of a problem with Big Ag, and I really don’t have a problem with vets. But that doesn’t mean I accept every word uttered as if it came from the burning bush. No one and no industry or practice is without its detractors - though sometimes not all the criticism is justified or informed.

If you think I was asserting that I am somehow better, more unique, or anything special, or that I deserve more money, you are very much mistaken. I don’t know of any farmers around here that operate that way - and most of them are large full time operations with employees. My main focus on sustainable farming has nothing to do with Big Ag - and more to do with protecting genetic diversity in domestic livestock and food, protecting rural communities and open space, and ensuring that entire diverse communities with a distinct culture, history and language are not paved over and lost. And that has nothing to do with money or business. And it really has nothing to do with how you are treating people who dare to question whether they are receiving value for their money.

[QUOTE=dr j;4215749]
I have the attitude? Is that my quote? Don’t think so - that is your interpretation.

Didn’t I read a lot of comments by you on the sustainable farming thread? Wasn’t your general opinion that if there is a demand for these services/products than what is the “big agribusiness” beef with sustainable farming?
This is no different… why are you so unhappy that some people want these services even if you don’t?[/QUOTE]

#325

[QUOTE=Ambrey;4214828]
That is exactly the point, though- why can’t routine vaccination be done for a reasonable cost, without the mark-up, at our vet’s office?

And the truth is, several vets around here do offer it. Those that inflate routine care, push “extras” that many of us don’t find necessary, and run their business like a chiropractor’s office are driving away part of their customer base. It appears that we’re among the percent they didn’t want anyway :([/QUOTE]

isn’t that the beauty of a free market though? You don’t have to use the vets that “push” extras.
If there was no mark up how would they make any $$??Or do you mean REASONABLE mark up?

And I can guarentee you, after many years in the business, there are almost as many people who WANT the stuff you complain about that DON’T. Just as many people LIKE the marble and spa, or extras thier vets do so they don’t have to worry about it.There are just as many people who put thier already dying dog thru a $2000 surgery, as there are people euthanizing a 12 week old puppy they just bought that has parvo. It truly runs the gaunlet of what people will or will not do… and you know, just like you don’t have to shop at the high end stores, you don’t have to shop a high end vet. The choice is entirely yours.

#326

Sorry, I meant without the unnecessary fees. Of course I expect vets to mark-up their products to make money.

#327

[QUOTE=dr j;4215760]
Calling you on the carpet on this one. I have not insulted any of you personally yet have taken a barage of personal judgement. Start citing examples of exactly this from anything in this thread please.[/QUOTE]

Sure. Start with your first post and then work your way down to your last post.

In every one there is at least one haughty sentence that is dismissive, intentionally insulting or intended to malign, or otherwise intended to make your clients (the public), feel stupid and embarrassed to have the audacity to question the vet. The giggly, ha ha stuff is really puerile.

At first you tried to make us feel sorry for you because of your school debt - but we all had to start out poor in life though I wish it wasn’t so.

Again - I don’t have a problem with vets and I don’t, in general, have ANY problem paying what they charge for their professional attention and advice.

No one - not one person - has complained about that at all. What they are complaining about is not receiving good value, being pressured into unnecessary services or purchases, being bullied into feeling guilty about their choices - and that the changes in sa practices into boutique medicine (and I’m sorry but the care has NOT changed or improved - maybe in very high end practices but not all vet practices) may not be a good thing for animal owners.

Now - you keep posting about your school debt or that 45% figure or how exclusive your practice is and how we don’t deserve to have pets and see how much we all fawn over you. I have the utmost respect for my vets - but they in turn treat me the same way. I’ve never EVER had a vet be so dismissive and arrogant as you have been to me.

I’m just concerned about receiving quality vet care for my pets and livestock - and though I’m happy to pay for it I WILL reserve the right to question if upscale/boutique practices, now becoming the norm - are in the best interest of animal owners - and the animals.

#328

[QUOTE=JSwan;4216076]
Sure. Start with your first post and then work your way down to your last post.

At first you tried to make us feel sorry for you because of your school debt -

Now - you keep posting about your school debt or that 45% figure or how exclusive your practice is and how we don’t deserve to have pets and see how much we all fawn over you.[/QUOTE]

Not asking for fawning. Just for accuracy.

Mentioned my “loans” once- didn’t even say they were school related ( as they were not) - in the post about the countertops for reference. I never mentioned it again.

NEVER said anyone didn’t “deserve” to have pets, just that it’s not a “right”.

I am sorry you dislike me so much JSwan but for pity’s sake please please please re-read my posts before you personally attack me yet again.

“My” practice is NOT exclusive and I never said that was- so please stop putting your inferences onto me . And once again- the 45% figure is just that a figure. I didn’t make it up, it is what it is. 90% of a veterinary practice’s revenue comes from 55% of their clients. Period. This is not offensive or demeaning to anyone, it just is! :confused:

#329

[QUOTE=AiryFairy;4215530]
And yet, there are others, like KV VET who say up front they buy their drugs at the same place as the vet does, only they offer them at a lower price - probably by buying volume. Unless they’re out and out lying on their website, then I don’t buy the “ooh, they could be bad” argument. Drug companies make the same drugs sold in Canada for less money, yet try to insinuate that unless we buy them here for 6 times the price, they’re “dangerous”. Not too dangerous for the nation full of Canadians to take them, mind you, but too dangerous for AMERICANS to buy them cheaper in Canada. What’s dangerous is that the drug companies will do and say ANYTHING to keep gouging the consumer, they have very strong and well paid lobbyists to make sure their profits are protected. Doesn’t mean it’s right, it means they get away with it until the political climate changes.[/QUOTE]

And I have nothing negative to say about them, or Fosters and Smith, or Smart Pak. The difference to me is all in the reputation of the company. I’m not going to go so far as to say all mail order or online pharmacies are bad, and if that’s the impression you got then I apoligize. My beef is specifically with 1-800-PETMEDS, and others like them. The ones who only exist online, and who’s sources for getting medications cannot be traced. PetMeds has been found guilty in the past for selling counterfit and expired products, and I’m sorry, but if they have so little regard for the laws how much do you think they really care about your animals.

And to be more direct, when we send letters to clinets for ordering online, it’s not for ordering from Fosters and Smith, or SmartPak. I mean, we call it the ‘petmeds’ letter for a reason. :wink:

Katherine
Vet Tech

#330

I’m in the group who will happily write a prescription upon request. I think $4 Wal-Mart generics rock. I figure that pet care dollars saved by getting the meds at Wal-mart means more pet care dollars available for the things Wal-mart can’t provide, like emergency surgery. Fee structure at the place I’m at provides an emphasis on the exams and other professional services. This is one business model but far from the only one. I’ve seen invoices from other places in the area, most are within $10 for the annual exam package (HWT, exam, vaccines) but how it’s broken down varies.

I do have far more confidence though in Smartpak and KV Vet. Much of that has to do with how those companies handle interacting with us. Pet Meds actually tends to be downright nasty. They’ll fax a prescription request at 2 am and by the time we get in at 8 am there’s already a second nasty fax b*tching us out for not having faxed back the request. It’s not that I won’t authorize the script (provided medically appropriate) but I’m not sitting by the fax at 2 am. Once I’m in it takes a few minutes to review a file and approve. So some of the seeming lack of desire to fill scripts through Pet Meds is the company’s own doing. Most of the others are pleasant to work with. And our local compounding pharmacy actually makes my life easier when I call them, especially with odd requests.

#331

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;4209432]
Just a note about Heartgard… The rumor mill has been circulating that it soon will be available OTC, and not just through a vet.

The way my clinic handles 1-800-PETMEDS and some of the other shady pharmacies? We approve the first request(assuming it’s something the animal needs) and then we have a form letter we mail out to owners that explains the dangers of ordering through the online places like that. How nobody is really certain where the products come from, so the companies that make them won’t honor their warrenty, and they potentially may notbe as effective if they were handled improperly. That way we did our job and informed the owners, but we’re not going to cause hard feelings by denying the request. Once we tell them the reasoning then it’s their decision to make.

Katherine
Vet Tech[/QUOTE]

If I got a letter from a doctor like that, not to use a specific pharmacy… I would run, not walk away from that practice and I might consider calling the DA’s office. Same with a veterinary practice. It is called libel to send out a letter like that, unless your practice can back-up all with first hand experience and/or court documents that document what the letter is alleging.

Seriously, the practice you are working for is almost begging for a lawsuit from PetMeds or “some of the other shady pharmacies,” because a business can not go around sending such letters without proof that the claims being made are true and that proof had better be for every single one of the claims in the letter.

Some things are better left to the FDA and the USDA to sort out. If I were a practice and had proof of shady medications, I would take it to the authorities, not write letters such as you have outlined.

Oh, but what about the second request, do you approve that too?

#332

Well, another plus for my vet. My dog is on Etodolac and it seems to be about the same price online as he charges me- maybe a little more, but this way we chat about how she’s doing every time I fill the prescription, so it’s worth it :slight_smile:

#333

Just as many people LIKE the marble and spa, or extras thier vets do so they don’t have to worry about it.

Awhile back I read a piece about a study done on colleges soliciting donations.
The researchers set up two fundraising situations–in one, the furniture was modest, the carpet a little threadbare, the food decent quality but not fancy.

In the other, there were beautiful antique oriental rugs, antiqe furniture, fancy finger-food, vintage wines, etc.

The fancy-ass setup got much higher donations than the simpler one.

People are weird that way.

Some of them put a huge amount of importance in trappings.

I once had a horse for sale at my house. No dice.
Stuck the same horse at a pro’s barn and had 2 people fighting over him in a week.

#334

I would not call it libel if the charges against the pharmacy in question were true.
In fact, I suspect there is more liability in dealing with a pharmacy known to be in violation of the law.
The information is freely available, BTW, should you care to look.

Me, I handle it by writing a prescription and handing it to the client. (with the exception of a local compounding pharmacist who is excellent, and whom I will call Rx’s in to.)

The client can then deal with whomever they choose.

#335

[QUOTE=Cielo Azure;4216768]
If I got a letter from a doctor like that, not to use a specific pharmacy… I would run, not walk away from that practice and I might consider calling the DA’s office. Same with a veterinary practice. It is called libel to send out a letter like that, unless your practice can back-up all with first hand experience and/or court documents that document what the letter is alleging.

Seriously, the practice you are working for is almost begging for a lawsuit from PetMeds or “some of the other shady pharmacies,” because a business can not go around sending such letters without proof that the claims being made are true and that proof had better be for every single one of the claims in the letter.

Some things are better left to the FDA and the USDA to sort out. If I were a practice and had proof of shady medications, I would take it to the authorities, not write letters such as you have outlined.

Oh, but what about the second request, do you approve that too?[/QUOTE]

As Ghazzu said, it’s not libel when it’s all true, and documented by prior court cases and manufactures statements. Also as linked to on the PetMeds website itself it lists they are not an authorized retailer and have to go through third parties to get the meds.

And yes, we’ll continue to approve the requests from whichever pharmacy the clinet choses to use. We’re just going to make darn sure they’re informed about their choices. It’s called informed consent in medical talk. Besides, most of our clients order off of the clinic website, since our prices are as good or better than petmeds.

Katherine
Vet Tech

#336

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;4206173]

Of course, who knows, you may just be ponyfixer posting under an alter. lol[/QUOTE]

I was wondering how long it would be before you mentioned me. I’m staying mute.

#337

[QUOTE=Luckydonkey;4215618]
UMMM- yes large animal vets DO have fully staffed offices, equipment, etc to maintain and run-plus the mobile vet vehicles they tend to have as well- Do you think they keep all their equipment in their garage at home and just haul it out when it is needed? They need to have larger exam areas, stocks,stalls, holding corrals, etc… I think there is alot more overhead in developing a large animal facility than a small one- the difference is that alot of people who have pets treat them like a family member and will spare no expense to keep poor fluffy in the family another day, whereas livestock people tend to be more likley to opt for lesser procedures…[/QUOTE]

No, I’m fully aware of the facilities – yet when you go by square footage that is cleaned, air-conditioned/heated, roofed, etc., small animal practices are on average “larger” than equine practices. It’s not necessarily about size of equipment and plain square footage, but maintenance of that size and effort to make it profitable (techs, inventory, etc). Many large animal practices don’t have as extensive facilities either since many of the patients are treated on the farm – they refer to larger facilities with boarded surgeons, etc. when the situation calls for it, nor do they have the number of technicians a small animal facility does.

May I suggest a book for online perusing? It’s not complete (as most books on Google aren’t), but it provides some good insight.
http://books.google.com/books?id=NSmmnIHo9UsC&lpg=PA110&ots=ce7LVWen4u&dq=veterinary%20overhead%20practice%20large%20small&pg=PA109

#338

You know, this all vaguely reminds me of one of the hot arguments going on when I was pregnant with my daughter, over rapidly increasing c-section rates.

Some doctors said “but this is what the patients want!” Some doctors said, “just because the patient wants the most interventionist treatment does not mean it is the right thing to do.” Couldn’t the same be said for veterinary care?

#339

[QUOTE=Ambrey;4217847]
You know, this all vaguely reminds me of one of the hot arguments going on when I was pregnant with my daughter, over rapidly increasing c-section rates.

Some doctors said “but this is what the patients want!” Some doctors said, “just because the patient wants the most interventionist treatment does not mean it is the right thing to do.” Couldn’t the same be said for veterinary care?[/QUOTE]

But how do vets know who is who? Thus, offering to all and having some refuse seems the best choice, rather than not offering, or (even worse) assuming who wants what. And what if the owner/client does not know the current range of treatments, and may have changed their mind upon hearing them?

#340

[QUOTE=Pony Fixer;4217796]
I was wondering how long it would be before you mentioned me. I’m staying mute.[/QUOTE]

Hallelujah for that. :lol:

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