Snaffle permitted at PSG

[2ndyrgal]

Holy cow people

Number 1… it is OPTIONAL!!!
Number 2… Let’s talk about all the imported big moving warmbloods who might still have a show career left except if you put them in a double bridle they lose their minds and try to commit suicide by flipping over, but will happily piaffe’, passage, and do 1 tempi’s in a horror of horrors, snaffle bit with a plain cavesson. Correctly, with joy and impulsion and harmony and floppy ears. Let’s talk about the hapless ammie’s who want to move up, trainer needs their custom and they should NOT be punishing their horse with a double bridle. If their horse goes badly in a snaffle, the scores will reflect that and Mr/Mrs trainer can say "see, I told you we needed to work on x before you and Snuberfuven moved up.
Number 3… The European contingent is laughing because you all think this is even something to be worked up about.
Number 4… a very very well respected dressage trainer once said when asked why he rode daily his best horses in a snaffle "if you can’t do it in a snaffle, then you haven’t learned it correctly. "

[ESG]

@dalpal;4167517

[quote=ESG;4167510]I just want to adhere to the standards of the level. I’m a traditionalist, I admit; I like to do what works. :winkgrin:

If I were to extrapolate on your theory that the dumbing-down to the snaffle is good, then one might reasonably conclude that we should give Training through Third level riders the option of using other bits than snaffles, as they would make it easier for the riders to get the horses round. And maybe we let the schoolmasters show in wraps or boots, just to give everyone the benefit of being able to ride in a show, without a perfectly sound horse.

You see where this is going, right?[/QUOTE]

Not really. I have more of a problem with “smarting up” 3rd level by allowing the double bridle.

I never thought that the double at 3rd was a good idea.

I just personally don’t think the double is all of that and a bag of chips. I’ve seen many riders use it as a crutch…sure I can get my horse on the bit in a double, but not in the snaffle.

I couldn’t agree more. The horse should be schooled in a snaffle through GP, according to more than one of the international clinicians I’ve ridden with. I concur. But when one aspires to compete at FEI, one should follow the rules and school one’s horse accordingly; which means, having the finesse to ride in a double bridle, and having taught your horse to accept and work well in same. :winkgrin:

Me personally, I’m more of a [purist…why put all of that hardware in my horse’s mouth if the horse will do it with less???

Because it’s a requirement for showing at international level.

I’ve never understood the spur rule either…if the horse doesn’t require spurs, why do they have to be used? I’m more impressed with a horse/rider who can do the movements with less, not more.

Again, it’s a requirement of the level. And, if a rider showing PSG can’t avoid inadvertantly spurring his/her horse, s/he doesn’t need to be showing that level.

People, it’s about being competent. It’s about proper schooling. If you’re not willing to put in the work, why should the rules be changed to accommodate you? Dumbing down American dressage yet again - can you say Halleluja! :dead:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=slc2;4167481]
agree with that, and agree that it takes MORE skill to ride in the double than the snaffle, but i think that’s why it is being allowed in the national classes.[/QUOTE]

I wonder how many posting here have ridden a dressage horse trained to the higher levels and in competition in a snaffle and then with a full bridle?

The difference is like a ballerina performing on stage in hiking boots and then putting some dance slippers on.

The same horse, but the level of response to the slightest aid is so much greater, it is like you are riding a different horse.

That is because the snaffle is kind of a dull way to communicate, “noisy” in a horse’s mouth and forgiving, ok for training and exercising, where you have to give the horse a little more to work with.

Once in a double bridle, the level of communication becomes sharper, finer, quicker and it will also enhace any miscues, give away a stiff, unprepared ride, aids that in a snaffle would have been ignored easily by the horse.

Riding in a double bridle requires a considerably more educated horse and rider, mentally and physically and that is why it is not used until both have reached those levels.

Can a horse perform as well, consistently, without losing it’s edge, in a snaffle, at the higher levels?

I guess that we will see, when some may try it.:yes:
The question is, why not use the proper, better tool for the task at hand?
I think a few may pull that off, as they may riding without a bridle at all, I have seen that, but so very few will ever get to that point in the training of the horse and rider.
If and when they do, it will be something to see.

That is just my opinion, for what it may be worth.

[ESG]

@Equibrit;4167520

It hasn’t been established that the new rule is “dumbing down”.

Well, it’s not exactly requiring additional competence by the horse or rider, is it? So what would you call that?

[Equibrit]

NOT EVERYBODY REGARDS IT AS DUMBING DOWN DRESSAGE!

And yes it does require “additional competence” ! Riding in a full bridle is no great shakes, why would you say that is such an achievement ?

[ESG]

You can’t say that with any authority - you don’t know everybody.

[Equibrit]

I can say it with authority - I am one of “everybody”.:winkgrin:

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=ESG;4167538]

[quote=dalpal;4167517]

I never thought that the double at 3rd was a good idea.

I couldn’t agree more. The horse should be schooled in a snaffle through GP, according to more than one of the international clinicians I’ve ridden with. I concur. But when one aspires to compete at FEI, one should follow the rules and school one’s horse accordingly; which means, having the finesse to ride in a double bridle, and having taught your horse to accept and work well in same. :winkgrin:

Because it’s a requirement for showing at international level.

Again, it’s a requirement of the level. And, if a rider showing PSG can’t avoid inadvertantly spurring his/her horse, s/he doesn’t need to be showing that level.

People, it’s about being competent. It’s about proper schooling. If you’re not willing to put in the work, why should the rules be changed to accommodate you? Dumbing down American dressage yet again - can you say Halleluja! :dead:[/QUOTE]

Well, I’m not stressing over it…because I doubt seriously I’ll ever be competing at the interenational stage…nor will most people on this board. And I doubt seriously that the international folks will be riding in snaffles…I have a feeling that even though it is okay, that it will be taboo…so I don’t think you have to worry about America dumbing down.

I guess I wasn’t looking at it as dumbing down riders…I thought it was being kinder to the horse. Who is to say that the rule was silly to begin with? If my horse will do one tempis (one day I hope) in a snaffle), why should I cram her head in a double bridle…when she is elegant in a snaffle. If my horse moves off my leg, why should I poke her with spurs? I do wear spurs, but if I had a horse who didn’t need them, why should I have to use them.

I think the beauty here is…no one is making you ride in a snaffle bridle…so carry on in your double…but there are legit reasons for having the rule changed, many have been suggested on this thread.

I stand by my belief that less is more. And I would love to see some horses doing brillant FEI work in a good ole, plain snaffle. I say BRAVO to those who have horses who can do this, and I hope mine will be one of them.

Less artifical aids needed, the better IMO.

[dalpal]

ROFL…sorry about that last post, it looks like I’m replying to myself. :lol:

[amastrike]

:rolleyes:

I could have my horse doing canter pirouettes with a curb and spurs. Doesn’t mean it’ll be good. It’s harder to do the more advanced movements in a snaffle. If someone can perform well in a snaffle, good for them! That’s how it should be. You shouldn’t NEED tons of equipment to get results. Last I checked, dressage means “training”, not “adding gadgets to replace good training”.

ESG, your argument seems to consist of “but it’s the rules!” So what? The rules aren’t necessarily right.

Question: The top levels require a double bridle… but does one have to USE the curb? Could one ride with the curb rein quite loose, or even knotted and sitting on the horse’s neck?

[Quest52]

we all do realize that there is a snaffle bit int he horses mouth in the double, right?? That the point, to correctly ride, is to have to snaffle with the contact, and the curb with the loose contact to communicate minuscule details?? That is is possible to ride in a double bridle, and keep the curb dropped loose??? That is is possible to ride with spurs on your feet… even GIANT roller ball spurs, without touching them on the horse???

I really really think… if you want to have fun in your back yard doing “fancy” movements, by all means do and do it in whatever you want… hackamore… whatever…

but if you are to show, you should show your competence for the equipment required. You want to be “kinder”? Then hold your curb in the correct fingers, but loose so it doens’t ever touch the horses mouth. And hold your legs still, as they should be, and don’t poke the horse.

I think offering the snaffle as a choice alone is offering people to get out of something they themselves cannot conquer. There really are small bits out there… there really are thin reins out there. There are ponys and small young riders that do this folks.

[belambi]

does this mean then that spurs are also optional?.. since they are compulsory when using a double?

[inca]

I ride my 3rd/4th level mare in the double sometimes but school most of the time in the snaffle. So, what is the big deal if we get to PSG and for some reason I decide to ride in the snaffle? Not that I would with this horse because she is easier to ride in the double. Last year I showed 3rd in the snaffle but will probably use the double when we show this fall. I just refuse to ride her in the double every day because I want to be sure I can get correct work in the snaffle - which is actually HARDER than doing it with the double.

But, I have another horse that I probably WOULD show in a snaffle. She has a bit of a “nervous” mouth and I am really not sure how she will do in a double. We are schooling some 3rd right now (had a little set back with an injury but are back on track now) and if we are lucky enough to get to PSG, I won’t hesitate to take advantage of the new rule. And I don’t think I need to apologize to anyone for doing it - everyone else is free to use the double.

[daisyfields]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4167620]

I think offering the snaffle as a choice alone is offering people to get out of something they themselves cannot conquer. There really are small bits out there… there really are thin reins out there. There are ponys and small young riders that do this folks.[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen far more people throw on a double because they lack the refined aids than people who use the snaffle for that reason. People who want to hide their flaws are more likely to throw on a double so they can crank the horse into movements than use a snaffle to avoid discomfort to their horse. Those who rush to compete are the ones that have themselves, not their horses, in mind and so that argument makes sense. The problem isn’t incompetent riders trying to rush through levels in a snaffle, honestly how many of those has anyone seen, but rather riders rushing in a double. Adding a snaffle to PSG is not going to up the amount of people riding there who don’t belong, and it certainly isn’t offering people a way out of learning.

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4167620]
we all do realize that there is a snaffle bit int he horses mouth in the double, right?? That the point, to correctly ride, is to have to snaffle with the contact, and the curb with the loose contact to communicate minuscule details?? That is is possible to ride in a double bridle, and keep the curb dropped loose??? That is is possible to ride with spurs on your feet… even GIANT roller ball spurs, without touching them on the horse???

I really really think… if you want to have fun in your back yard doing “fancy” movements, by all means do and do it in whatever you want… hackamore… whatever…

but if you are to show, you should show your competence for the equipment required. You want to be “kinder”? Then hold your curb in the correct fingers, but loose so it doens’t ever touch the horses mouth. And hold your legs still, as they should be, and don’t poke the horse.

I think offering the snaffle as a choice alone is offering people to get out of something they themselves cannot conquer. There really are small bits out there… there really are thin reins out there. There are ponys and small young riders that do this folks.[/QUOTE]

Yep. and apparently now, a snaffle is an option for “equipment required”

So if you don’t use the curb, why must you put in the horse’s mouth
If you don’t touch the horse with the spur, then why must it be on your boot?

Are we saying that dressage is about costume, rather than performance? If a horse rides a beautiful test in a snaffle, we should just write it off as novice wannabe instead of applauding the team for the elegant test?

Conrad Schumacher once said in a clinic that it really doesn’t matter what bit you have in the horse’s mouth, if the horse is truly engaged, the horse will find the bit…so are we saying that we can’t get horses engaged without putting two bits in their mouth?

[Equibrit]

Elizabeth Madlener on the full bridle at 3rd;
http://www.equiery.com/archives/Dressage/DoubleBridle.pdf

[ToN_Farm]

[QUOTE=Quest52;4167620]
That is is possible to ride in a double bridle, and keep the curb dropped loose???
You want to be “kinder”? Then hold your curb in the correct fingers, but loose so it doens’t ever touch the horses mouth.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know whether it is being enforced, but I recall some discussion or rule where the rider would be penalized for a loose curb rein. One should have a connection with the curb; otherwise how would it be used as intended? Even with the curb rein dangling and riding only off the snaffle, the double bridle still is a more powerful tool than just a snaffle bridle.

I am one that prefers to ride in the snaffle, and I do not have trouble manipulating the double reins. The double bridle puts torque (maybe the wrong word) on the poll where their are sensitive nerves that bother some horses.

I’ve been hoping for this rule change, but it’s coming too late for me.

[Valentina_32926]

@Quest52;4166484

I may get crucified for this… but here goes:

I don’t understand why this would be an allotted option at the FEI level. If one moves up the levels, then the ability to maneuver and use the horse also moves up. If someone cannot use the double bridle, which is the higher level headgear for the animal, then I don’t believe they are at the level where they, or the horse, should be handling the FEI classes.
If you can’t handle the equipment, then you’re (or your horse) does not seem to be prepared to move on.

What about the riders showing with a double that really have no business showing as they can’t ride? At least with this rule change the trainer can tell their clients to show in a snaffle so the horse isn’t (inadvertantly) punished with the double. From what I’ve seen there are more people who should be riding in snaffles than doubles so this is better for the horse (harder to MAKE the horse round using the snaffle than the curb - which is what I see a lot of lately).

[FriesianX]

In the international arena, the judges WILL penalize a rider for a loose curb - loose meaning loopy. So in answer to amastrike’s question, no, you can’t go in with the reins loose and loopy, or just tied.

And I have ridden horses with both double and just a snaffle. And yes, some of them are much better in the double bridle. Heck, some of those FEI horses can’t be ridden in a snaffle anymore. Some are not better - some horses retain a better lateral flexibility in a simple snaffle. Put the double bridle in their mouth, and even if you don’t touch the curb, they know it is there, the feeling is a bit different both on the poll and in the mouth. They may flex more easily longitudely, but that is only half the story. Totally drop the curb rein, they still know it is there. AND - if you drop the rein, you do have a bit of a bounce effect in the horse’s mouth.

I don’t know where the concept of “two reins” became the pinnacle of rider competency, heck, in the hunter and jumper world, the pelham is often introduced quite early. If you are good with a pelham, you can pick up the skills of using a double bridle fairly easily. Granted, not all are good with a pelham either, but once you learn the independent feeling of the two reins, you’ve got the foundation. It is much harder to learn to use your seat and legs effectively, and that has NOTHING to do with the double bridle.

As already stated, it is optional - and it is now the rules (well, not now, but in December 2009) in national competition. Yeah for USEF for thinking of the good of the horse!

[Quest52]

1.- I’m not saying hold the thing at the buckle (ha… no buckle on them)… but loose guys… loose.

2.- I can destroy a horse in a snaffle just as I can in a double. You suck if you rip a horse apart with either… so using that as justification is not an argument.

Again, showing that you can ride in spurs shows that you have control of your leg. Showing that you can ride in a double shows that you have control of your body and hands. Of course, both of these can be done improperly, but thats not the GOAL of having it as a requirement.

And to the person who read the mind of the Europeans saying they are laughing at us for debating this… I would guess… because I am not European, nor a mind reader, that they would just shake their heads further at us American’s trying to change the rules on our side of the pond to make it work better our way.