So I take it we aren’t allowed to talk about Helglstrand video here?

Looks like she removed this comment

Interesting article regarding this topic….

12 Likes

That’s an interesting article! “Reverse empathy” was intriguing.

1 Like

I like this article but I wonder how salient it is to the Helgstrand issue…I doubt we would see an entire arena of rollkur’d, kicked, and electroshocked horses if every rider there was coming from a place of frustration and ignorance, and if those “techniques” did not work to get some desired result.

Very clearly, this is a deliberate assembly line of coercive, abusive training techniques and it is successful to the extent that it creates highly salable horses.

“If we look at the best trainers in the world, the acknowledged masters of their field, then we almost never see or hear of violence in their training methods.”

Unfortunately, we are learning that some of the most highly accomplished masters do indeed choose this violence despite knowing fully of other paths.

It’s the $$$

17 Likes

Ehhhh, no. The system made AH, and he capitalized on it. Once the tests started rewarding gaits and taking out the hard tests of training, it set up a path for someone like AH. And he is not alone. If he stepped back and said, No, I won’t make horses that move in such a way that the judges reward them despite mistakes, he would not have the power he has.

8 Likes

Ehhhh, no.

Does the system reward his product? Yes. Did it take a poor innocent victim and put a gun to his head? No. There are many at fault, not just the system. He is definitely one of those who should shoulder some blame.

10 Likes

Agree. Add the international judges to that list. Add the test writers (judges) to that list. Add all the technical advisors to that list. Add the international committees in every country to that list…add the riders and grooms to that list. Add the buyers who want an 8 year old horse they can do the GP on to that list.

This training method is known as “learned helplessness”.

6 Likes

I think the amount of riders and industry professionals sitting silently on their hands after this whistle blowing event speaks volumes.

24 Likes

Operation X: Where Do We Go From Here? | HORSE NATION

Published 11/28/23.

11 Likes

Incorrect. Horses are classed as livestock and viewed as livestock for lots of reasons - taxes and standard of care being the big ones. Although California and PETA are always trying to get horses reclassed as pets/companion animals so that they can tax/charge fees and regulate care by local feelings vs veterinary standard industry practice.

5 Likes

If you have anything to say regarding horse welfare (or lack thereof) this guy is seeking info and comments so he can grasp how bad the horse welfare/competition thing is.

He sits on the EU Parliament.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02Kc9YXvyMzqPrBFurNC7FBRosz2u65sPcqPGy56VDfLDX8nwBssW3DTJNB5NVzPvFl&id=100058077219107&mibextid=Nif5oz

3 Likes

Yes!

And while I personally am not ok with painting AH with the victim brush however delicately, I will absolutely give (uneducated or poorly educated) buyers a pass. They see things, they want things, they buy those things without necessarily having any insight at all into how those things were built. I sort of equate it to our own consumer habits. We didn’t used to be fully aware of sweatshops before the internet. I mean, sure we had an idea, but we certainly didn’t have the full-colour experience that we can easily access now and that does influence some people’s shopping choices, just the same as eco-friendly, and ‘green’ do.

6 Likes

Sorry no!! Not what I think…. An average Helgstrandbuyer spends a lot of money and will take usually take a trainer with him in order to protect his investment. The less experienced he is the less probable it is for a buyer to show up by himself….

So the buyers should be educated by their trainer and know what they are getting into…. Every dressage rider knows about the blue tongue….

3 Likes

But how many people with too much money and not enough experience actually know even enough to shop for a good trainer. Every dressage rider does not know about the blue tongue, just as the whitewashing of Blu Hors Matine’s tail wringing was glossed over as ‘expression’ (or whatever) all those years ago, so many things are still put down to ‘one off’ or this particular horse, or whatever other excuse.

Not directly related to dressage, but it’s the first ‘everyday’ type example I can come up with - the ‘wet saddle blanket’ method of training that so many western folks (and many English that send their horses to western trainers for starting) ascribe to. Does it work? Sort of. Is it kind and in the best interest of the horse? Not so much. But it is almost lauded by many as the way to start a horse. It’s the way things are done. No-one has told those owners that it is not optimal. They accept it as a necessary way to training their horse.

10 Likes

Really I don’t support people with too much money who don’t know anything…
They deal with live animals so they are fully responsible :pleading_face:. Even people who don’t know how to ride should be able to recognize whip marks or spur rubs covered by shoe polish :pensive:
Or bloody mouths…

So people in the US use wet blankets to start young horses? Wow….

1 Like

I think at that level; people honestly don’t care about neglect. they are shopping and spending that level of finances to WIN and its the reason why operations like Helgstrand, etc will get away with this and it will continue to be swept under the rug.

The money machine and the corporate level of finances involved has gotten too big. They are no longer horses; they are a commodity.

18 Likes

Yes, they are classified as livestock here in Canada as well, but they do not get the same tax benefits as buying and raising calves, chicks, piglets, lambs, cattle, chickens, pigs and sheep. Horses do not qualify for farm status unless the foals are actually born and raised on your property and sold within 4 yrs to show a profit. I can buy calves and sell the next year and get farm status. Go up to any non-horse person and ask them to name what animals are livestock. Very unlikely any will mention a horse.

Well, if there are more documentaries showing the mistreatment and abuse of horses and the horse community continues to support the abusers, we will face outside pressure to make changes.

1 Like

This article found the words I have been struggling to write. I agree 100%. Thank you for posting it.

2 Likes

Wet saddle blanket means you start with a dry saddle pad and work the horse till the saddle pad is wet. Not how I start my young horses. Unfortunately there are some who believe it installs work ethic and also sadly teaches the horse they have no say, learned helplessness???

5 Likes

Thanks for the clarification !

1 Like