I saw a video from that event but could not identify the rider… but the video did not impress me….
And I deleted it because I am not sure whether it’s real…. I don’t want to post something which shows something wrong 
2 Likes
There are a few comments under that video.
Since I dont have a clue about the Danish guy, can you expand on your thoughts? Your emoji makes me think this is a positive, but then when i read there has been business connection, I’m not so sure.
1 Like
Yeah, when someone gives me that kind of answer, my response is, “I don’t know how to play the violin, either, but I do know when one is of tune.”
10 Likes
Holy over bent Batman.
Granted, I get that things aren’t always perfect, especially if the horse is new to some things or still learning and building the strength, but still. I’d get reamed out for not having the “nose in front” by my trainer and probably most of the clinicians I’ve ridden with. I know this because “nose in front,” as in nose in front of the vertical was shouted at me in German many a time 
took a minute to work though that with my little Iberian, but it was not soo extreme.
In the video the chin comes too close to the base of the neck or chest for my comfort! Just my humble opinion.
14 Likes
You are not alone. Back in the dark ages, I took dressage lessons with an old cavalry colonel, former old delegate to FEI. If the nose went behind the vertical, the comment that was shouted was, “Automatic 4.”
So IMHO…the standards have slipped. Judges are the enforcers and the rules are not being applied. Now the outline shown in the video above is accepted and certainly not marked down EVEN THOUGH the rule book says
DR101 Object and General Principles of Dressage
6. In all the work, even at the halt, the horse must be “on the bit.” A horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the gait, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the rider
DR102 The Halt
- At the halt the horse should stand attentive, engaged, motionless, straight, and square with the weight evenly distributed over all four legs. The neck should be raised with the poll as the highest point and the head slightly in front of the vertical.
DR103 The Walk Section 3( c)
The nose must be clearly in front of the vertical
DR104 The Trot Section 4(d)
The rider allows the horse to carry the head a little more in front of the vertical
DR105 The Canter Section 4(d)
the horse to carry the head a little more in front of the vertical
DR113 The Passage Section 3
The neck should be raised and gracefully arched with the poll as the highest point and the head close to the vertical.
DR114 The Piaffe Section 3
The neck should be raised and arched, the head vertical.
DR115 The Collection Section 6
be distinguished by the neck being raised unrestrained forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll being the highest point with the head slightly in front of the vertical.
16 Likes
I apologize, for me this was supposed to be sarcastic. This guy has been working with him for years. His wife Carina rides Heilines Danciera (who I really like) and has been his student from the beginning.
For me this is another step back to normal life at Helgstrands….
2 Likes
About the video, I apologized I hoped somebody knows the rider…. And I was a bit shocked about her lesson… I remember some years ago IWerth taught at the USDF convention and her teaching was very very different then….
But I guess times change…
I found this video from the convention… Yes I guess times changed……
1 Like
In case it wasn’t clear, I am not supporting Helgstrand nor do I feel bad for him in any way, and he is not the person that should be saying anything about social license to operate … he (and those like him) are a big part of the reason it’s an issue.
I was saying that there are plenty of dressage riders that are nothing like him, but are still dealing with guilt-by-association via their participation in the sport because people like AH are not only allowed to continue to participate in the sport, but are often more rewarded by the judges than those who put in quiet, sympathetic rides but lack “brilliance.” If those riders, and the judges/powers that be don’t stand up and condemn his type of “training” and show it’s not needed the general public will undoubtedly, and understandably, side with the peta-types and pony patters in thinking dressage/double bridles/whips/spurs are inherently abusive.
9 Likes
Regarding Everdale, I don’t know Lottie Fry’s training methods, so I’m not willing to crucify her as abusive unless someone has evidence. But the fact that he’s cleaning up in competition is a real red flag about what judges are rewarding… he’s short in his neck and tight in his back, why is “expressiveness” of leg movement and “brilliance” considered more important these days than actual engagement of the hind end and self carriage? Are we judging dressage horses, or Saddlebreds?
I ju$t can’t figure out why judge$ keep rewarding ten$e hor$e$ that have 7-figure gait$ over tho$e that are truly correct …
33 Likes
I don’t think anyone called Lottie’s riding abusive, certainly not what I was going for. The horse looks uncomfortable and unsettled, in my opinion, but there’s pressure ($$$$) on the rider to keep moving him up the sport. Even though I see fundamental issues with connection and throughness and think it would be better for his overall welfare and harmony to work on that, it would take time and a willingness to return to the basics - any rider who tried that would promptly get the ride taken away from them. Plus the judges are rewarding him as-is, so there’s absolutely no incentive to change, and no incentive for other horses/riders/owners not to rush up the levels and ignore these kinds of flaws if they have extravagant enough gaits.
Just trying to draw the comparison of when judges/riders will speak out and when they’ve remained conspicuously silent.
3 Likes
Question about the Fry’s recent win on Everdale - when did that competition take place, and does he always go short in the neck and with a tight and dropped back?
Reason I am asking is because many stallions spend a fair amount of time in Nov/Dec being collected over and over again for frozen semen - and repeated collections can absolutely make a stallion sore and tight in the back and hindquarters. Also, horses in northern Europe usually don’t get much turnout time over the winter months, so it is possible he has spent most of the past several months in his box and getting out only to be collected and “work”?
(Adding that when I was going to Germany on a fairly frequent basis back in the early aughts - where we spent a lot of time visiting some very well known sport horse operations - the stallions got turned out (individually) in an indoor arena for a hour or so one day a week to run, buck, roll, etc. The staff at one such VERY well known facility referred to it as the stallion’s “happy hour.” )
7 Likes
Yep, I had a friend say she’d seen the video (I had not yet) and remark on how he just didn’t look correct in his neck and back. I immediately said “Breeding season - it’s tougher on some than others.”
3 Likes
I don’t know anything about her either but assuming she is not an abusive rider…
I would like to share one of my experiences. my mare is rather talented so at one point I decided to teach her the Piaffe. I usually teach it by sitting on the horse… so I made her react to my legs and I knew something was happening so to go on to the next level I rode the Piaffe during my lessons. And I rode with amazing clinicians…. Kathleen Reine and Jo Hinneman.
So I rode the Piaffe and we both got a lot of praise for it 
. I think somebody even mentioned on a show my horse with the amazing piaffe ( I did it during my warmup)
Well the more I rode it the more I felt something was not right…. I always needed feedback from the ground about the quality. I had no real idea while sitting on her how it looked like. But I thought if these Professionals approve it must be ok. So some years later I had a new trainer who wanted to ride my mare . And of course she wanted to ride her beautiful Piaffe.
So she got on her and after they started she immediately told me that my mare was not using her back properly. So a difficult situation started…. my mare did not approve at all to change her way of doing the Piaffe because she had it done for quite a time like this and was always praised…She assumed she knew how to do it and this new person on her did not…
But the trainer convinced her and since then I can feel every step of her piaffe 
So it is a matter of experience of the rider. if the rider has not years of experience how something has to feel he might settle with something sub optimal. and obviously it is sometimes tricky from the ground to see everything. in fact I am not sure if my mares Piaffe looks improved after making her to use her back but it feels like a different world…
so maybe some of these younger riders simply don’t know how a working back feels like…
8 Likes
Exactly. And to clarify - jumping the mount every day for weeks on end, combined with little to no turnout time, can result in soreness in the stallion’s stifles and hocks, which transmits to a tight and sore back as he uses his back muscles to try to alleviate the load on his stifles and hocks.
5 Likes
Even if I agree with you and I do! This means what???
If he is sore from all this breeding activity maybe then he should not go to shows. do you think the judges factored this soreness into their score??
3 Likes
Good Lord - if the judges factored his soreness into their scores, can you imagine what his scores would be if he WASN’T sore?
But sadly, the owners of stallions like that are going to keep showing them even if they are a bit sore because the more accolades the horse can rack up, the more in demand he will be by breeders. And the owners want to keep him in front of the judges and team selectors so he will hopefully go to Paris and win Olympic glory. They can then raise his stud fee - perhaps even a big name stallion owner will offer the owner millions and millions for him.
And I only mentioned the “soreness from breeding” angle to explain it to other folks on this thread that did not know about the toll that breeding can take on a stallion’s body.
8 Likes
If the primary issue is soreness from breeding season, does anyone have a video of Everdale where the tension and connection does not appear to be a problem for this horse? I can see it even in videos I saw of him as a four year old, but admittedly I have not followed him closely so perhaps there is better footage.
3 Likes
This video is from September … https://youtu.be/mArQiCGeSDQ?si=E-R7VYU8yvjhXDFF
IMO same tensions. Either she doesn’t know how it’s supposed to feel or she doesn’t care
5 Likes
Why would they factor this into the score? Judging is “supposed to be” objective. This test should have been filled with fives. They got it done, but it wasn’t pretty.
3 Likes
