So I take it we aren’t allowed to talk about Helglstrand video here?

Here, let me fix this for you:

He is not merely the product of a system that has to change if it wants to survive, he is one of the major forces that has the means to make the first steps towards a better, more humane system. And yet, he has shown no desire to take that first step to lead the way for all breeders and trainers.

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Well, no, actually there are plenty of definitions of culling and culling (even in livestock) does not always mean slaughter, but rather to remove from the herd. Removing from the herd does not necessarily mean sending to auction marked for meat only.

Culling can mean selling some of your nice animals because they are surplus.

Hell, the term culling can be used to describe separating the best from the “less” best - removing superior things from a group.

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It actually isn’t but I am not going to spend any more time on the subject since google still exists.

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Slaughter is the commonly understood definition of the term in reference to horses or livestock or wild animal populations. You can google this very easily.

Keywords “culling definiton”

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It’s silly to argue about the definition of culling when the term is used both for slaughter and removing inferior animals from the (registered) gene pool by other means. IMO gelding is a form of culling, as is selling without papers etc.

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This is really irresponsible claptrap.

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Is illogical.

If one breeder bred 100 or 100 breeders bred one each, you may still have a few top horses, many middling ones and a few very poorly conformed or otherwise impaired individuals.

“Breeding”, reproduction of any kind, is a gamble, as anyone that has bred any at all knows very well.

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You can also go past the first definition to find many more.

In addition, I have actually worked in the dairy industry. To mark a cow “cull” does not always mean direct to slaughter, or marked ‘meat only’ to auction. It means getting rid of excess animals that are not needed whether that is euthanizing, sending direct to slaughter, selling for meat only at auction, or selling as dairy stock whether that is at auction or private sale.

Please, before you tell someone else to google something, up your own google game :slight_smile:

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Even someone who only breeds a handful of horses a year might reasonably choose to euthanize a foal born with severe enough conformation issues that it wouldn’t be suitable to be a riding horse. There are very few happy endings for those stories.

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I just can’t be empathetic to someone who abuses horses. Or others who use the excuse that they are just following orders. Or people who know the abuse is happening and just turn a blind eye because they are profiting financially from their association. Or the organizations in charge of overseeing the sport who are afraid to challenge a “big name”. Or all the people who say this has always happened and that it happens in other equestrian sports. People who make excuses for the abusers are part of the problem.
Stop doing business with them. Stop buying those horses. Stop giving them a smack on the wrist and letting them compete. Refuse to compete with them. Let your money talk. People listen to that.

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I don’t get the back and forth about the definition of culling, especially when its use was by a European breeder, right?

Even though many Europeans have excellent English skills, it’s not their primary language. They may not be aware of the nuance, just looking for the closest approximation of the word they’d use in their native language. Debating their meaning/usage of “culling” based on the textbook definition seems silly in this context.

Honestly I don’t know why people are going down this tangent when there are concrete examples of harm and abuse in this thread.

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Interested, which European Breeder used the word culling??

I was the one who originally used the word and probably, based on what I see in here, used it inappropriately. Screening may be a better word.

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Well, we really only have pictures and blurry video clips now don’t we? Since the video is so important it’s behind a paywall.

Regarding culling, it sits wrong with me if a breeder is churning out dozens of foals then shipping any that don’t meet the cut to slaughter so nobody realizes the foals came from their stallions (and not just conformation flaws, but just “isn’t blank quality but would make a ammy horse but we don’t do ammy horses”) That’s a huge difference from euthanizing major issues or gelding/selling out of the program. It’s just another mode of operation of programs that care more about money than the horses.

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I think that all equestrian competitions that are judged subjectively are inherently susceptible to abuse and corruption. I was once told by a trainer who showed in multiple disciplines that jumpers made the most sense to her because the judging is objective. It’s time against the clock and rails down to calculate the score.

Can you really blame the young riders who grow up admiring the international dressage riders and want to emulate them? How would they know any better? Anyone can get caught up in the normalized behavior of dressage - from the exorbitant prices for competitive horses to the less than kind training techniques. If you need proof, just look at where we are today. It’s not just that there’s something rotten in Denmark. (no pun intended)

Reining is another example of subjectively judged competition where the horses’ welfare is not prioritized. My vet told me that a lot of the reiners in his practice are done by age 6. Six.

Dressage done correctly makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately, competitive dressage does not.

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because they start competing at 2…

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As a jumper, while it would be nice to believe that it leads to less abuse, there are certainly trainers out there who use poling, apply concoctions to the lower legs to increase sensitivity, etc.

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Yes. And we’re promoting it on shows like The Last Cowboy. :frowning_face:

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100% agree. But at least the judging system is objective.

Not sure about laws in the US but I am pretty sure that culling in the sense everybody here likes to associate it with European Horsebreeders is extremly against the law……
I know in the past puppies from litters which were to large were culled even if they were healthy because it was assumed the mom wouldn’t be able to raise all of them…. nowadays you will get in real trouble if anybody suspects you cull puppies.
I would assume that European horsebreeders would get into bigger trouble if somebody assumes they cull foals than for this training abuse…
Maybe go and visit the breeding operation in the Lewitz owned by Schockemöhle and ask how they deal with weaker foals or foals suspected not to make it to the Olympics. a friend of mine is married to the guy working for Schockemöhle,who sells a lot of the young stock in the Lewitz…I have never heard him mentioning the word culling.

The only place I regularly hear this word in connection with horse breeding is on this board….

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