Each discipline has their own rules.
In barrel racing, I hear you have to wear a cowboy hat, long sleeve western shirt, jeans and western style boots.
I think that now juniors may wear a helmet, or there is talk of that.
What does that has to do with barrel racing itself?
If you want to play in their sand box, you have to go by their rules.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;6738102]
My perception is that 99.9% of the folks who have expressed an interest in WD are more than willing to follow the applicable rules. I donât think that any of those 99.9% want anyone to bend any rules to accommodate them. As Iâve already said, I donât even want to see WD classes held at traditional dressage competitions.
Which is part of my frustration with the discussions over on the dressage forum. ONE person expresses an interest in wearing a flowered garden hat on a bareback pad on a racking horse at a dressage competition and it blows up into âthose WD people are disrespectful of Dressage.â[/QUOTE]
Donât worry about the discussions, they donât matter. Until she pays her fees and shows up and rides, sheâs just running her mouth. Shut up and ride.
The few peeps in my area who show at my GMOâs schooling shows in western dressage are on really nice horses, are good riders,and to my knowledge they feel welcomed. I know that I feel welcomed, and I am almost always the only person doing gaited dressage. Honest to God if you show up and even attempt to know your forks, you will be welcomed. If you show up and mock the rules, well⊠good luck.
I donât worry about the chatter. the 180 degree difference between the flowered hat and the Resistol says it all.
Edited to note that I was replying to Blueyâs post.
Who is suggesting that WD people shouldnât have to, or donât want to, follow the rules? If I was going to show in a WDA-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with the WDA rules.
If I wanted to compete in a Cowboy Dressage-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with the Cowboy Dressage rules.
If I wanted to compete in a USDF/USEF-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with USDF/USEF rules.
If I didnât like anybody elseâs rules, Iâd go start the Tall Mule Dressage Association and make up my own rules. The TMDA Test 1 would be the Beer & BBQ test posted over on the Dressage Forum. 
Again, Iâm just not getting what all the fuss is about.
Beer & BBQ testâŠyes!!
Iâm definitely not âdefensiveâ because I have never ridden a dressage test in my life (and am still working out the order of the letters). But I think I try to improve my riding and I know that there are a lot of really good western riders (in my area at least) that might enjoy being able to show off what they work on outside the WP ring.
How do you find out where a WDAA show might be held (I saw nothing on their website in the northeast at all, but I suspect there are shows that are following WDAA rules?) And/or how can I encourage our local show circuit to try it? (I would guess getting knowledgeable judges would be the key issue?)
I posted earlier in this thread re: how I prepare judges to evaluate me in gaited dressage. I send an email to the GMO with definitions, videos, etc (never of me and mine) and ask that they consider offering it.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;6738167]
Edited to note that I was replying to Blueyâs post.
Who is suggesting that WD people shouldnât have to, or donât want to, follow the rules? If I was going to show in a WDA-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with the WDA rules.
If I wanted to compete in a Cowboy Dressage-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with the Cowboy Dressage rules.
If I wanted to compete in a USDF/USEF-sanctioned competition, then I would expect to fully comply with USDF/USEF rules.
If I didnât like anybody elseâs rules, Iâd go start the Tall Mule Dressage Association and make up my own rules. The TMDA Test 1 would be the Beer & BBQ test posted over on the Dressage Forum.
Again, Iâm just not getting what all the fuss is about.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, not what I suggested at all, although I see how it may sound like that.
I was responding to the OP, that thought she could not follow what dressage demands.
She stated that would be too hard on her horse, that has health issues keeping it from collecting enough.
That is why I was agreeing that, for her, working/showing in other than traditional dressage as a discipline would be a good idea, if she was not going to be following the rules all the way.
Western dressage maybe being a bit looser with some of them and so a better fit.
A night of work at the mental hospital where I am employed sort of prepared me for where this discussion has gone. Thanks Bluey, I am indeed glad that you getand have tried to explain, what I had originally intended. I am glad that a venue, however âimperfectâ has been created where myself and my imperfect OTTB might be able to dabble and have FUN. This is a hobby for me, I doubt I will ever take myself seriously enough to get all twisted up over any of it.
Here is another negative with my using traditional dressage tack; my Tb loves to yawn and relax his jaw muscles. Usually after a ride, sometimes during. Itâs just what he does, I believe itâs a big tension release for him. I just wouldnât put a cavesson and especially a flash on him and make him carry that tension.
Also I was at a Buck Brannaman clinic a few years back where I watched Buck do a lovely half pass in a wade saddle. Light aids, just a pretty sight. So I guess thatâs what my goal is with western âdressageâ (call it vaquero riding)
Have you ever seen this fellow, Pedro Torres? I love watching him -talk about lightness in a horse doing work! This is Working Equitation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk
Paula
I know where you are coming from.
I want to tell those very intense dressage followers to lighten up.
I learned with some that were at the top, one five times national dressage champion and many other awards.
Wonderful people all and they were right to not accept any but the best and know why it was that.
One example, I was teaching a horse the spanish walk and was berated, as âthat is a disuniting movement, not suitable at all for a dressage horseâ.
Ok, I get that, never again while I was there did I cross those lines.
We did what was proven and everything else was wrong and with good reason.
BUT, in most other settings, you do what you want to do and you know, in the end, it just seems to work fine anyway.
It is very insightful that you realized your horse is not a good candidate to be a happy camper with any kind of cavesson and respect that.
Me? I probably would have tried one anyway, very loose at first and then see what happens.
I felt it was not right for that horse, find a way to make it work, or give that up and not use one, even if the rules may ask for one.
Or, like you did, see if another venue may be better for a horse you donât want to use that on.
I would say, there may be some that start with other dressage than traditional and may end yet, who knows, in traditional dressage after all.
I think that associations should not be restrictive, but open to give others a chance and I think Dressage is trying to do that, tentatively at first, without losing who they are.
for the OP: to ride dressage you dont need to use a tight noseband⊠you also dont need to ride in a dressage saddle. there are good trainers out there that will happily teach if you are interested in learning.
my âfearâ about western dressage is that it will muddy the already muddy waters of dressage and people will get more confused instead of less.
if you are interested in learning dressage find someone who can help you - and the good trainers are flexible and will work within the ability of you and your horse.
good luck.
oh, i want to also comment - i think what some folks are having a hard time with is that WD is taking the already existing dressage tests and rules, that were developed over many decades (actually almost a century now) and altering it as they see fit and saying it is their new sport.
this frankly pisses people off. If you want to start a new sport - fine - but make up your own rules and create your own tests⊠dont just take âoursâ.
[QUOTE=mbm;6739150]
oh, i want to also comment - i think what some folks are having a hard time with is that WD is taking the already existing dressage tests and rules, that were developed over many decades (actually almost a century now) and altering it as they see fit and saying it is their new sport.
this frankly pisses people off. If you want to start a new sport - fine - but make up your own rules and create your own tests⊠dont just take âoursâ.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on, really? That is why people are upset? What is this, middle school? Did the WD people try to pretend they invented them or something? If this is honestly the real issue, thatâs sort of sad.
What sort of âtestâ could the WD people possibly come up with that was ânewââŠhorses can walk, trot and canterâŠthere arenât exactly infinite possibilities.
Wylde Sage said:
âA night of work at the mental hospital where I am employed sort of prepared me for where this discussion has gone.â
This may be the best observation and comment so far!
Interesting discussion. I know of a woman in Colorado who rode one of her horses to Reserve National Champion Western Pleasure and was long-listed for the Olympics in Dressage back in the late 60âs in the same year I think. He was a tall Arabian stallion, Kishtee Timp. She has gazillions of Top Ten awards in every area under her beltâŠEnglish Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Park, Driving, Combination classes. Those classes require riding with contact and without contactâŠthey require expertiseâŠshe did these classes often on the same horsesâŠswitching âdisciplinesâ. It is not just about tackâŠit is about feel, balance, and knowledge. Her horses were correctly riddenâŠshe wasnât a âkidneyâ rider. She schooled in her western saddle no matter what she was doing. She is a national R judge and is the most talented rider Iâve seen on any horseâŠever. She just had more feel than anyone, and I believe could have held her own with the most well-known dressage riders of today, if she was competing now. I donât know what she is doing now, but if I was in CO, I would stalk herâŠto pick her brain. Sheâs a tough cookie. Her name is Judy Wilder Wilson, and sheâs on FB. Just a tip. If I wanted to pursue Western Dressage, Iâd go straight to her.
[QUOTE=mbm;6739150]
oh, i want to also comment - i think what some folks are having a hard time with is that WD is taking the already existing dressage tests and rules, that were developed over many decades (actually almost a century now) and altering it as they see fit and saying it is their new sport.
this frankly pisses people off. If you want to start a new sport - fine - but make up your own rules and create your own tests⊠dont just take âoursâ.[/QUOTE]
Did all the fox hunters have this same kind of reaction to show ring hunters? âThose show ring hunter people are taking an already existing sport with its own rules, that were developed over many decades - centuries, in fact, and altering it as they see fit and saying itâs their new sport. What theyâre doing is not 'huntingâ and they have no business calling their horses âhunters.â If those wussies are too sissy to ride out following the hounds they should just start a new sport, not take âoursâ."
Or, sticking a little closer to home, how do you (the generic modern dressage competitor, not you specifically) feel about the classical dressage purist saying the same things about modern dressage that youâre saying about WD?
A quote taken from the first thing that popped up when I googled this question:
âModernâ Dressage uses methods of training that are not used in original Dressage. âModernâ Dressage started using tools to get the horse to a certain point in training faster than originally intended. Why do people want to be at that point faster? I can give some reasons but that is just assuming. It probably has to do with money, competition urge, pride etc.
So since people started using methods that were not used in the original Dressage, there has come a split between this original Dressage and how âmodernâ trainers train their horses. The people who refuse to practice those modern methods still use the Classical principles and they are rather not compared to people who use modern methods (and I can understand as I am one of them) So there you have it, the difference is born, Classical versus ModernâŠ
Do you suppose the classical dressage proponents are pissed off because modern dressage proponents have âjust takenâ their sport? Should you be calling what you (generic modern dressage competitor) do something else, not dressage? Because apparently, according to the classical dressage proponents, what youâre doing isnât really dressage?
I agree with S1969.
i am just going to post this from the other thread:
[QUOTE=Guilherme;6739248]
During prior âdiscussionâ on âgaited dressageâ I did some research and found a memo from a USDF committee that was directed to explore the possibility of including âgaited dressageâ into the USDF format. The committee recommended against this inclusion. Their primary reason was that âpurity of gaitâ is a critical element in evaluating a horse. Given the multiplicity of definitions of gait in most gaited breeds (not to mention the fluidity of those definitions within the breeds) it was unreasonable to expect a judge to master all of them and give an intelligent evaluation. Some major breeds, like the TWH, do not have a breed standard; breed standards would normally be expected to include a gait standard. They do have judging standards and gait descriptions, but even among TWH enthusiasts there is huge variety of opinion on what constitutes a correct ârunning walk.â IMO the committee was correct in their assessment.
Re âwestern dressage,â there are about as many styles of âwestern ridingâ as there are stars in the sky. Applying the same logic as was applied in the âgaited dressageâ question how does a judge master all the various styles and how they affect movement?
Any individual âgaited horse dressageâ or âwestern dressageâ organization can control these variables by setting out a defined set of standards that a judge can apply. They might look to USDF for guidance (formally or informally) but the program will be unique to the organization creating it.
Personally, IMO the western and gaited folks trying to âstorm the battlementsâ of USDF to get ârecognitionâ are on a foolâs errand. The practical difficulties are overwhelming. They are better off to stay in their own venues and do their own thing in the ways that they need to do them. If USDF folks have issues with those ways then Iâd tell USDF to âkiss my grits.â
Approaching organizations like USEF or FEI for formal recognition would be a subject for another day.
G.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=mbm;6739360]
i am just going to post this from the other thread:[/QUOTE]
Re âwestern dressage,â there are about as many styles of âwestern ridingâ as there are stars in the sky. Applying the same logic as was applied in the âgaited dressageâ question how does a judge master all the various styles and how they affect movement?
I guess I donât understand what this is supposed to mean. The issue with gaited horses, I get that - they do truly move differently. But why would it be different to judge a quarter horse? Especially since itâs been mentioned repeatedly that I could show my APHA mare in traditional dressage and it wouldnât change the way we are judged (although a paint or QH might not be as competitive in the upper levels).
Or is it judging a WP horse against a horse like mine, that has been ridden âenglishâ and not been encouraged to go around like a WP horse? I guess I still donât really understand what the âstyle of western ridingâ would have to do in the WD ring â whatever other discipline the horse competes in should be sort of left at the gate, wouldnât you think? We see a lot of horses that go western and english in the local show series and the good ones switch âstyleâ with their tack.
Maybe you are referring to the style of contact with different bits? And I do see how that could be difficult to judge - a western horse could be ridden with contact even if the reins appear to be loopy. But it seems like that could be overcome if thatâs more of the issue?
Obviously the proof of the judging will be in practiceâŠand I think it might just be too early for it to be consistent across the country. Clearly what will make WD âlegitimateâ will be how it is judged, and whether the judging actually recognizes and rewards âpurity of gaitâ in the same way that traditional dressage does.
ETA: just FWIW, I donât disagree that it is too early for the WD movement to want USDF acknowledgment, and probably many of those that might want to try it wonât actually care if they are recognized by USDF anyway.
[QUOTE=fairtheewell;6739347]
Interesting discussion. I know of a woman in Colorado who rode one of her horses to Reserve National Champion Western Pleasure and was long-listed for the Olympics in Dressage back in the late 60âs in the same year I think. He was a tall Arabian stallion, Kishtee Timp. She has gazillions of Top Ten awards in every area under her beltâŠEnglish Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Park, Driving, Combination classes. Those classes require riding with contact and without contactâŠthey require expertiseâŠshe did these classes often on the same horsesâŠswitching âdisciplinesâ. It is not just about tackâŠit is about feel, balance, and knowledge. Her horses were correctly riddenâŠshe wasnât a âkidneyâ rider. She schooled in her western saddle no matter what she was doing. She is a national R judge and is the most talented rider Iâve seen on any horseâŠever. She just had more feel than anyone, and I believe could have held her own with the most well-known dressage riders of today, if she was competing now. I donât know what she is doing now, but if I was in CO, I would stalk herâŠto pick her brain. Sheâs a tough cookie. Her name is Judy Wilder Wilson, and sheâs on FB. Just a tip. If I wanted to pursue Western Dressage, Iâd go straight to her.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a neat lady.
Little me, not by far very accomplished in the arena, a good 40 years ago, was at a small show riding a filly about her 30th saddle, just watching and they needed one more rider for points in their WP class.
They asked me if I would fill in, so we changed my English saddle to a western saddle, first time I had sat in one, they could not even get the stirrups short enough for me, so I had to keep reaching for them, we went in that class and guess what, WON it.:lol:
If you ride correctly, in those days, you could do well, no matter what was under you.
I expect it is a bit more difficult today, the level of technical requirements more specific to each discipline.
Ask Anky about reining.
Guilhermeâs comment only applies to those who are trying to get USDF recognition and the right to compete at USDF-sanctioned shows.
As I have said repeatedly, I, as a potential WD competitor, have absolutely no desire to be affiliated with USDF or to show at USDF-sanctioned shows. And, I strongly believe that the vast majority of folks interested in competing in WD share that view. If I wanted to belong to the USDF and compete in their shows, I would do it in a dressage saddle, wearing boots and breeches, under the guidance of a traditional dressage trainer. But Iâm not interested in doing that, at least not right now.
You (the generic traditional dressage competitor who is fussing over WD) are getting all fired up and blasting a fledgling discipline for disrespecting your sport and trying to horn in on your turf when 99.9% of the people involved are doing no such thing.
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