My previous comment was not aimed at you. You should never even have to ask the question you did.
My point is the BN is still an introductory level. The original intent of BN was to allow new riders and horses a chance to get on a course without pressure or stress, allowing them to get their XC legs. When folks start treating BN as we used to treat Prelim, that says something about how badly the creep has occurred. BN should be fun and straight forward for both horse and rider.
I agree with you, but I also think it’s not just level creep, it’s also people with little or no experience above the level. I think BN and N should be straightforward but unless the fences are part of a combination or significant terrain question they should be up to height. I often see/ hear complaints about courses containing “max” table or oxer and or brush, which I think is not generally inappropriate and doesn’t make the course particularly hard or stiff (unless you’re riding a horse that shouldn’t be at the level at all.)
I wish!!!
It is a bad reflection on the sport indeed when we 1) can’t rely on TDs to insist that events/designers follow the intent of of the rules 2) can’t expect straight forward tests at the level.
Poplar Place BN is listed here as soft. That was not my experience a few years ago. Fences that asked multiple questions: A log going from the dark of the woods into light, with a tree one stride out preventing a straight jumping effort with terrain. An old tree with roots at one end and an “eye” placed at the the other with the water jump ahead in the site picture. There is no reason on God’s green earth to put a creepy black disc on an otherwise smooth jump other than to invite horses to back off. Why, why, why are we trying to back BN horses off fences? BAD, bad course design for BN.
It’s not hard. A BN XC jump should ask one and only one question beyond the basic “jump it” question. Something with a little terrain, or a bit of a lighting issue, or seeing water beyond, or straightness at a very slight angle, etc is fine, but when you are asking these multiple questions at a single fence the course is no longer “straight forward” or inviting for the level. If your BN course has multiple problems that’s a reflection of poor course design. You did a poor job. If you want to know how good and inviting the course design is look at the last year’s results. If a quarter to a third of the division or more had problems, don’t take your green horse there.
If you are a rider that doesn’t want BN and N to be dressage shows then you need to pull up your big kid panties and move up. You are the problem and the ultimate reason for course creep.
Apologies for the late response - no wifi on the boat I was on over Xmas. Grand Oaks was a schooling show run partly to check their organization as they had never run a HT before ( but plenty of Dressage, Stadium & Driving shows). From our vantage point about halfway up the valley, it looked like the majority of penalties and eliminations was at the Open Ditch, Fence 6A https://app.crosscountryapp.com/the-…eature=jump-6A. The track came round to the left side of a shallow vee, which looked like a slightly wider part - most riders who cleared it seemed to go for the right side. Unusually the ditch was revetted vertically with round poles as it was quite deep so did not look at all like the majority of ditch questions.
This course looks really fun and inviting and straight forward! 
And just the right questions for this level!
Were in the same boat down here in Area VIII-I cant name a single soft or move up course at N and above anymore. Our two traditional “move up” events-May Daze and Jumpstart are now some of the more difficult of the year. I was in for quite a surprise when I used MD as a move up to N last season and apparently T and above were even worse. I was a bit shocked by the number of max tables in the first 6 fences. For a nervous ammie who was trying to run her first N ever, it was super intimidating.
I’ve been to a few course design/officials courses and it seems to be the opinion, at least down here, that “soft” courses do no one any favors, and “appropriate for the level” seems to be max height.
I can say out of all of the events I’ve ridden in Area VIII at BN, not a single one had an option for a ditch, water or bank. All were flagged mandatory. That’s why I had to laugh when I saw the ditch option for AECs at N-all of our N courses have had an open ditch, if not a coffin (except for MD which had a max table, down bank, to a table). I
Makes me super nervous for this season as a)I’ll be coming back after having a baby with no soft re-entry opportunity at N b)If all went well, I would like to maybe move up to T next season but I know if I have to move up to a max T course, I won’t make it around and c)I have a baby I hope to get going at BN next year but I dont really know where he can start as I want him to be confident and have fun and most of our BN are a bit technical.
“I was a bit shocked by the number of max tables in the first 6 fences. For a nervous ammie who was trying to run her first N ever, it was super intimidating.”
It’s a busy day in my world but just a quick note (not going to look at the rules/design guidelines right now) but I know that I’ve read specifically that standalone fences such as a table (or more likely rolltop) are SPECIFIED that that they must be at or close to max height, in my understanding is done with safety in mind, i.e. rider respects fence enough to set up for it and not just write it off.
Hoping others will chime in.
It wasn’t that they were max, it was that they were that early on course (like 2nd and 3rd jumps). For a “soft” course, it seemed like a lot to me.
There were some very good, up and coming CD’s in Area8, until they had to attend CD school with CMP. After that, the courses became less appropriate, less galloping, with more level creep, than before they “learned” from CMP. It is sad that the USEA still believes his CD methods are good. How many horses/riders have his courses killed or ended their careers? JMHO.
I, too, hope to make it back to BN someday.
Jersey Fresh, have you tried Penny Oaks in IN? It is an early event and may be a good place to move up? LAZ would know. You could send her a PM?
I was about to ask the same thing!!
I’ve seen people at their local BN events and my local Starter events are twice the size.
Penny Oaks is pretty max as far as size. It will have a mandatory water crossing (possibly two), a re vetted ditch, an up bank, and a two stride. Nothing trappy, lots of solid portables, and the footing is equivalent to your front lawn (can be hard or soft depending on the weather) but it does go out and back through the woods.
I agree, it seems ridiculous that asking for a “soft” BN move up has to be asked. Not meaning ANY offense at all to the OP, I mean it’s ridiculous in the fact that level creep is so prevalent everywhere. I looked at the Grand Oaks course map, and my first thought was wow that seems fun! BUT that being said … I’m also wanting to move up to novice soon…the thought of seeing that ditch on my first BN course would probably have made me cry.
I’m in area VI and have only been to 3 of our venues. Its interesting because I feel that here, they have made BN easier. In 2014 when I did my first BN on my old gelding, we had TWO flagged waters, an up bank, and a ditch. I did BN in 2017 at the same venue (and at the end of the season at that venue, too), and neither of the waters were flagged, there was no ditch and no banks. A venue I went to later in 2017 (last event of the season for this area) had a very inviting ditch, an up bank (that I was worried about, but it rode very well) and had two water complexes, neither of which were flagged. Meanwhile the novice course at that venue had a brush fence to an up bank 4 strides (maybe 5?) to a down bank 4 more strides to a maxed out table. Oh, and also a corner out of the water!
As an ammie in Area VIII who describes myself as quite wimpy, this makes me nervous. Two years ago, my gelding and I did a few of the HTs at Starter (MayDaze, Mid-South, and Champagne Run), but due to me getting married that fall and a job change last summer, we didn’t make it to any HTs since then (we did have a decent run at BN at the Flying Cross July 2017 mini-trial). I was hoping to start out at Starter again this year and make the move up to BN, but hearing about the level creep just worries me.
@GallopAndJump I think Starter at May Daze and at CR are both pretty soft. Maggie tends to sent stadium at starter for those at like 2’ and the XC is not bad at all. The other events tend to have stadium set at 2’3 and XC with slightly bigger questions but they almost always have a water option. If you can do starter at a FC or CR mini trial, you should be fine
I have not seen level creep at starter. They all seem to be pretty inviting still.
Although this may be applicable in some situations, I have seen many novice combos that should never move up to training. (Possibly myself included:lol:). Not an excuse for course creep however. I do think more options on course would be nice to test the waters at a higher level, but I realize courses aren’t designed for me!
I went to Full Gallop in Aiken last month and entered BN. Although I’d heard previously their courses weren’t “move up” courses, we had a great experience and went double clear both SJ and XC. My horse is not the bravest in the world over jumps, but he tackled every single one like a champ.
They started with logs and more natural elements, and then added in other things like feeders, coops and cabins. There were 2 options- #5 you could jump a small coop or a giant table (I didn’t comprehend it was an option and jumped the table :D), and #8 you could just pass through the flags or opt for the N down bank. 12 was a rolltop then 6 strides to a ditch shared with starter, so assuming your horse jumped the rolltop, the approach to the ditch was all set for you. All super inviting. Now their STADIUM on the other hand…:eek:
Bumping this thread back up, any changes to these recommendations? Looking to take my green bean out for his first BN.
Looks like Poplar maybe hit or miss on difficulty. Last weekends BN (Area 3 Champs) looked softer (no bank? or ditch?, only 2 water passings), but the schooling show early this year had a large riveted ditch for BN (usually used for novice).
IMO River Glen BN is very inviting.
I’ve always thought that Full Gallop was a good place to go BN with a young horse.
Their Training level, however, is ridiculously trappy (to me)
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