I didn’t see that at all, I thought it was well said. People would like others to participant in the dialog but when they do it is dictated how they need to say things. People may not be 100% to your liking but at least the dialog has started. I say we welcome SOMETHING unless you want to dig so hard people just quit engaging. Respect and listening goes both ways.
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Nailed it. POC who can afford it may not give our sport a second thought because of the perception that it’s a White People Thing. I mean, how would you feel if you were black or Latinx, took your horse-crazy kids for their first lessons, and the only non-white people at the barn were grooms or handymen?
We (white people in hunter-jumper land) all say they’d be welcome at our barns, a good horseman is a good horseman, regardless of color…all that may be true, but we’re going to have to be the ones to make the overtures and dispel the assumptions.
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I can see where Eric is coming from- I think he’s a very very loyal friend and will stand up for them when he thinks they’ve been wronged (correct or not). He does acknowledge that there are inequities in the horse world that need addressing so he’s not denying that. However, the issue was that the post originally put out by Missy was tone deaf (and she’s since acknowledged that) and I think (I could be very wrong) that he was upset that people thought of her as a racist so he defended her against that. I don’t know if he got that the post was tone deaf. Also mentioning his back ground (which we all know was horrible and no one would want to grow up like that) indicates that he may not (again I could be wrong) understand the implications of intersectionality. That is something that a lot of people have a hard time grasping but is important. Also he did mention that this issue was primarily American- he wasn’t too clear on what was meant by that but Canada is not innocent at all in this. Our treatment of Indigenous and POC is not to be applauded at all. We are pretty awful.
However, I do think in equestrian sports money does play a bigger role than race. I’m going to assume that a big show barn would choose a billionaire POC over a lower middle class white person. Just because the money is there. Now, how they treat that POC in relation to their other customers- I don’t know. There’s all sorts of things to consider- systemic racism, microaggression etc. How do we get more people interested in riding?? It’s not a popular sport in the grand scheme of things- it’s super expensive and very time consuming. It’s not on most people’s radars POC or white. To me the important thing is how we treat people once they’ve joined our ….cult. It’s not always about race but it may be a factor.
That all being said. Missy said all the right things in her follow up (whether or not they are heartfelt- we can’t assume either). I think Eric was simply defending a friend (which is great) but didn’t realize that things are way more complicated even though he acknowledged the inequities. Race, economics, accessibility, is all related and complicated that and whatever is said will cause people to be uncomfortable. Do we need to have the uncomfortable conversations- yes. It’s just very very complicated.
(Disclaimer- I’m Canadian, Eric is still my favourite, I teach Equity and Inclusion)
Dr. Fauci was the target of several death threats in April. What is wrong with people is kind of the theme of our country right now regardless of the topic/issue or which side you are on, although that behavior has certainly been out there for a very long time. I think more people feel emboldened to take that step with the various means of communication we have now and so it’s not just something more extremist people turn to.
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The issue of income and the issue of race are two huge - I’d even say existential - issues for our sport, but they are also separate. One does not solve the other.
We know that millionaire riders who are black and brown still face elements of racism that most of our elite leadership has been utterly blind to. Maybe not intentionally, but they haven’t engaged the problem nor done much to create any environment where engagement is possible.
We know that talented riders without millionaire parents or friends have little chance to get to the top of the jumpers today (more so today than say decades ago when our elite came of age). That problem is less so in eventing and dressage; you probably only need friends who make six figures to have a shot at the top in those sports.
These are both hard problems. And I think both need to be addressed if horses are going to continue to be available to horse-loving people who can’t fund their own multiacre horse properties. Horses can become even more irrelevant and even less accessible than they are now.
snaffle1987 asked with some sarcasm if we will “redistribute wealth to the latino grooms to level the playing field”? There is a lot to unpack. That in our sport, latino is basically synonymous with “groom” or laborer. That’s a truth. That we have decades of tradition of paying them under the the table either because it was illegal for them to work for us or because we didn’t feel like paying workman’s comp and complying with employer law in general is also true. That people, when called out on this, will talk about how no one else will take their (s##y) job with absolutely no self-awareness for the fact that they could, in fact, make those jobs better if they wanted to keep the people they have or attract different ones. I’ve watched for a long time and my conclusion has been that this system is working just fine for the employers. They like not having to compete with other employers for the workers they hire (they barely tolerate the idea that other horsemen might ‘poach’ them). They like that their workers are unable to access legal job protections. They even like that if they secure an H-1B visa or the like, that their employee can’t just quit and work for someone else. These are not jobs they would tolerate as lifelong careers for their own children.
IME, and it took me years to fully appreciate this, even the people who say they love their immigrant workers, and treat them with kindness and respect, still don’t treat them as equals.
Taking care of horses is in fact skilled work. Why shouldn’t it pay someone enough to cover a decent place to live, vacation time, and health insurance? Why wouldn’t you offer to your staff, if they so liked, free riding lessons and chances to ride - not just your white girl employees but every worker? Even though every barn I’ve ever ridden at has had immigrant latino workers, I’ve never seen one get a chance to ride a horse. Ever. Not their kids or spouses either.
I think it goes beyond that. Reading the experiences of so many BIPOC riders who are posting on social media and writing blog posts, so many of them bring up the uncomfortable feeling of being the only non-white person in their barn, but they also say that so many of the white people in the horse world won’t stand up for the rights of non-white folks in everyday life. I said it earlier, if white equestrians can’t be trusted to stand up against police violence against Black and brown bodies, or racialized healthcare outcome gaps, or environmental racism, or all the other systemic and systematic oppression forces BIPOC people face in this country regardless of wealth, how can BIPOC equestrians trust that we’ll treat them with respect in the horse world?
Well-meaning people keep asking in this thread how we can make BIPOC people feel more welcome and comfortable in the horse world. Seems like that will never happen if we don’t make it clear where we stand on the wider issues of racism and oppression outside of our sport. BIPOC people walk into the barn carrying that oppression; they don’t get to check those experiences at the door. Yes, representation is important, accessibility is important, outreach is important. But we have to walk and chew gum at the same time here, otherwise the changes are just performative. We can’t address racism in the equestrian world without addressing racism outside it, and vice versa—it’s all fully intertwined.
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Originally posted by snaffle1987 View Post
We live in a world that if you have an opinion that does not agree with someone’s agenda; you will be berated publicly, your business and job will be ruined and your life will be ruined until you step up and apologize for your opinion. There is examples of this going on all over the place.
I forgot hypocrisy, the most obvious one of all. I am specifically thinking about Colin Kaepernick.
“Make a plan and lets hear it.”
This screams both privilege and white privilege to me. This is just the beginning and the end of your post, there is a whole lot more in the middle. But again, this is just my opinion. I am only speaking for a myself and obviously I am not any kind of expert, on anything. I recognize a lot of your behavior and views because I see it all the time in some members of my own family. And I am sorry for being so short…I can kind of see you might really want to understand. (?)
If so, I believe you have to understand and believe that systemic racism, privilege and white privilege really does exist…but first you have to understand what it all means. I applaud you for taking a step forward (I hope I am reading you correctly). Now, for me to think you are sincere, you will have to get the chip off your shoulder and understand you may not be right all the time (I see white privilege there as well). God knows I haven’t always been right, but imo, there is a ‘right’ and a ‘wrong’ answer when it comes to certain things. Some of those things have just been seen as a point of view (the white view) for generations. Just some of my thoughts since you asked.
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A helluva good start would be to acknowledge the issue of institutionalized racism instead of denying it’s very existence.
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The issue of income and the issue of race are two huge - I’d even say existential - issues for our sport, but they are also separate. One does not solve the other.
We know that millionaire riders who are black and brown still face elements of racism that most of our elite leadership has been utterly blind to. Maybe not intentionally, but they haven’t engaged the problem nor done much to create any environment where engagement is possible.
We know that talented riders without millionaire parents or friends have little chance to get to the top of the jumpers today (more so today than say decades ago when our elite came of age). That problem is less so in eventing and dressage; you probably only need friends who make six figures to have a shot at the top in those sports.
These are both hard problems. And I think both need to be addressed if horses are going to continue to be available to horse-loving people who can’t fund their own multiacre horse properties. Horses can become even more irrelevant and even less accessible than they are now.
snaffle1987 asked with some sarcasm if we will “redistribute wealth to the latino grooms to level the playing field”? There is a lot to unpack. That in our sport, latino is basically synonymous with “groom” or laborer. That’s a truth. That we have decades of tradition of paying them under the the table either because it was illegal for them to work for us or because we didn’t feel like paying workman’s comp and complying with employer law in general is also true. That people, when called out on this, will talk about how no one else will take their (s##y) job with absolutely no self-awareness for the fact that they could, in fact, make those jobs better if they wanted to keep the people they have or attract different ones. I’ve watched for a long time and my conclusion has been that this system is working just fine for the employers. They like not having to compete with other employers for the workers they hire (they barely tolerate the idea that other horsemen might ‘poach’ them). They like that their workers are unable to access legal job protections. They even like that if they secure an H-1B visa or the like, that their employee can’t just quit and work for someone else. These are not jobs they would tolerate as lifelong careers for their own children.
IME, and it took me years to fully appreciate this, even the people who say they love their immigrant workers, and treat them with kindness and respect, still don’t treat them as equals.
Taking care of horses is in fact skilled work. Why shouldn’t it pay someone enough to cover a decent place to live, vacation time, and health insurance? Why wouldn’t you offer to your staff, if they so liked, free riding lessons and chances to ride - not just your white girl employees but every worker? Even though every barn I’ve ever ridden at has had immigrant latino workers, I’ve never seen one get a chance to ride a horse. Ever. Not their kids or spouses either.
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My comment was not directed at you. It was directed at many of the posters.
Keeping and caring for any animal is expensive. Especially when that animal is a large and accident prone as a horse. That is a reality. Horseback riding is never going to be as accessible as soccer. It will always be an expensive sport. That does not mean it can’t be more diverse. Pawning the issue off as “we aren’t excluding them, it’s just expensive, that’s why they aren’t here” is avoiding the issue. And is simply not true.
Making the game less expensive isn’t going to increase diversity, the POC who can afford it don’t want to come now, what makes you think they will come when it is cheaper? Our culture will not have changed.
And yes, hunter/jump show fees are ridiculous. Western sports manage to hold events for far less and get by.
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[Bolding and colour-change mine]
@snaffle1987: seriously stop. You are embarrassing yourself repeatedly. YOU said you were white so stop with what you clearly think is a clever little trick of challenging people who reference your being white. You proudly proclaimed it in your first post on this thread. Sorry, too late to play your little “how do you know I’m white - you assume!” BS “reverse racism” game. It’s pathetic and it doesn’t work particularly if you’re not even clever enough to remember you proudly outed your damn self ages ago.
Just stop. It’s so juvenile and cringe worthy and pathetic that you don’t remember what you yourself posted.
ETA:
FYI, there’s no such thing as “reverse discrimination” so for the love of all things good and holy, stop. Show some intelligence if not some shame.
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I live, show & have grown up in WA state. There is one rider in particular who is the daughter of a groom (she is 100% Latina) and who got this opportunity. I’m only in my 20’s, but she’s the first & only I’ve ever seen get this opportunity. She is a trainer now. Pretty cool.
On the flip side, the only reason I pretty much met my (Mexican) husband is because he was hired via text (through references) to groom. I was told by my boss to go and ask the new guy working for X (another trainer at a multi trainer facility) if he understood the instructions. Because they didn’t know if he spoke English or not.
He has a college degree. Guess who doesn’t? Yeah, the white girl (me) who got to ride nice horses even though I was too a lowly barn worker (kidding - we are invaluable!).
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i think it is pretty crazy you have never been in a barn without Latino grooms. Wow. And that is not a judgment on Latino grooms. But it is really unfortunate barns staff like that.
I have a law degree from Harvard and I am the “staff” at my boarding facility. I might own the place, but I am the one out there shoveling poop and mowing grass. There is not enough money in it to begin having staff, much less pay for my house, vacations, or health insurance. It does pay for liability insurance. I love it, I love caring for horses, and the small profit lets me keep my personal horse in full training and lets me go to shows…but my legal job pays my living expenses.
Money and race are both huge issues. IMO, money is the existential threat to equestrian sport. The race issue is just really unpalatable and gross.
Board would cost a lot more, perhaps prohibitively more for most, if it needed to include a living wage for the worker, without respect to race.
The one good thing about big A circuit barns is that most charge a ton and can afford to pay somewhat reasonable/liveable wages to staff. Entry to low-level rated barns are the ones who can’t afford to do this. We do occasional USDF and schooling shows so I fall in that category for sure.
I just keep it small enough here that I don’t have to try to cobble horse care together from teenagers and other under the table sources. I pay my handyman $35 an hour when I need help, but he owns his own business of which I am a small part.
Yes, but in the past couple of weeks I have noticed that white people fall back on the very undefined “We must do better.” Read a black author on the same topic and they can rattle off a list of things anyone can do to fight racism, as Stephanie Kallstrom did.
In another 20 minutes, white folks, your time in that no-man’s-land of ignorance, then humbly being enlightened, then feeling bad, then some unspecified promise about changing your action is going to end.
And I’ll give you guys even fewer minutes to get mad at me for saying “Shame on Missy Clark for only having her eyes pried open to 400 years of American racism in 2020.” There is no excuse for any adult of any color to be so ignorant. None.
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I can’t believe Lamaze or anyone else would argue that the onus is on black people to make white’s discovery of their racism comfortable.
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You might want to reread the post you just commented on. The poster said they’ve never been in a barn where any of the latino grooms or their family members ride.
Even though every barn I’ve ever ridden at has had immigrant latino workers, I’ve never seen one get a chance to ride a horse. Ever. Not their kids or spouses either.
I forgot to mention hypocrisy, the most obvious one. Even you can see this is exactly what people like you did to Colin Kaepernick.
It is not my responsibility to enlighten you, or anyone else. However, I do feel like it is my responsibility to point out racism when I see it.
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Nope, I read it. She said she never boarded at a place without Latinx grooms. At all.
I personally have never boarded at a barn that takes horrific advantage of Latinx people. Though, to be accurate, it is almost always Latino. I have always been “the help” and have had many groom friends, and honestly it is pretty out of touch to think they have local children usually. The majority are sending money back home to their families down below the border. They tend to have left their families behind and work their asses off to support them from afar.
giving their kids free lessons? Yikes as a solution. I have zero problem with illegal immigrants, most are incredible people who sacrifice a lot to be here. But it really minimalizes their struggle to think giving them riding lessons is going to help their real problems.
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Not sure anyone is making an excuse, but I certainly am not but here we are. You can’t go back in time and learn anything, you have to start from where you are today, wherever that may be. It absolutely is better late that never in this instance in my opinion.
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