[QUOTE=JB;4510296]
Oh yes, Remy is definitely brown!
Most people just don’t recognize brown, and call it “dark bay” or “black bay”.[/QUOTE]
Genetically, isn’t it?
Noooo, genetically they are different! 
The Agouti position has different variations.
A is bay - whatever shade, that’s determined by other factors, but it’s still all bay.
At is brown - different form of Agouti. Currently only PetDNA tests for this.
A+ is Wild Bay - this can be minimal enough to practically be a “normal” bay, or it can be extensive enough that the leg points don’t even come up to to the pasterns and the mane and tail are not-quite-black.
The pics above of Remy (seal brown) and the bay show a nice contrast between the 2.
Brown vs bay vs lighter brown
Generally, the brown horse has golden/yellow undertones, while the bays have red/orange undertones.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
JB - I will never be quoted as say they are the same again.
You had me at noooo. :winkgrin:
LMAO!! 
I hardly ever used the term “sorrel” until I got my horse, she is registered w/ APHA as a sorrel overo. Since I grew up using the term chestnut for awhile I was convinced it was a stock breed thing calling them sorrel instead of chestnut. That was until I took a closer look at her papers- My horse is a sorrel overo, her dam is registered as a solid chestnut (almost liver chestnut in the photo), and her sire is registered as a brown (almost black) overo.
It’s STILL a (generally) stock breed thing It’s just that those folks tend to differentiate between the 2 different shades, whereas on JC papers or WB papers, for example, it will always be “chestnut”.
I have a breeding stock Paint/APHA mare that I refer to as chestnut because she is very dark (liver chestnut). I registered two of her offspring as chestnut also but that was wishful thinking – I think they turned out “sorrel”, not liver like mom. I don’t recall seeing any guidelines or definitions but that’s not to say they don’t exist.
Curious about the dark bay/brown distinctions – is it distinguishable without genetic testing? I’d guess that it is, since previous posters are pointing out browns or saying “yep, that’s brown” based on pictures. That I don’t get.
What do you think of this mare of mine? Secret Secret again Secret one more time
I have been calling her dark bay. If you concur or disagree please tell me why, i.e. what are you basing your assessment on in these pictures? Thx!
Going back to the really old days when no one knew or cared much about color genes, I was taught to “get the colors right” and we had grade horses back then:)
So that means in today’s world, my four “brown” horses are actually:
One liver chestnut.
One sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail (no flaxen mane & tail equalls NO sorrel but a light chestnut.
One solid red chestnut with mane and tail to match until the July sun starts to bleach his mane/forelock to a gorgeous yellow/gold.
One medium Bay Arab. Not a dark bay, not a light bay, but a medium bay.
Years ago I owned a Morab that was a gorgeous solid blood bay. One of the few true blood bays I have ever seen.
The last thing I want to hear out of a horseowner’s mouth is that their horse is “brown”.
There are several hues of “brown” involved, just the same as there are many hues of blues, reds, yellows, etc, that we paint our homes with.
The differences should be learned and respected even if breed registries disagree on what “brown” really is:)
JMO:)
Yeah, generally, in the circles where sorrel is used, a liver chestnut would be called just chestnut. In color-knowledgeable circles, liver would be called liver chestnut
Curious about the dark bay/brown distinctions – is it distinguishable without genetic testing? I’d guess that it is, since previous posters are pointing out browns or saying “yep, that’s brown” based on pictures. That I don’t get.
Sometimes it’s VERY clear, but sometimes it’s very much a tossup.
What do you think of this mare of mine? Secret Secret again Secret one more time
I have been calling her dark bay. If you concur or disagree please tell me why, i.e. what are you basing your assessment on in these pictures? Thx!
Do you have a Summer picture? This is one of those times where it’s not a given. She looks brown here, but I have a mare who looks brown with her Winter coat, and obviously bay with her Summer coat. I’m going to have her tested.
As I mentioned earlier, browns tend to have a golden/yellow undertone to the color. Bays, of whatever intensity/shade, tend to have the reddish undertone. If you can’t see color like that it can be difficult. It’s like the difference between red that has a blue undertone and red that has an orange undertone.
OK, what color is my horse? I’ve been calling him black bay. He is coal black in the winter, no brown on muzzle or flanks. In the summer, he keeps the black legs and black mane and tail, but his coat turns a very dark seal brown.
Picture?
He may indeed be black, but fades. They can look seal brown when they do that.
[QUOTE=JB;4513138]
Picture?
He may indeed be black, but fades. They can look seal brown when they do that.[/QUOTE]
I’ve got to learn how to upload pics. The sun fading is a factor, and so is sweat, probably the salt. He fades more in the places he sweats more. So I guess I have a “black” horse. He sure looks like a bay in the summer!
Brown Vs. Bay
I was always taught that a bay was any shade of brown that had black points (mane, tail, legs). By that definition, the horses that JB posted would indeed be bay (though a dark shade of bay).
Brown was brown without black points. I always thought that brown was relatively rare.
my horse is very dark brown, almost black, wth light brown flank and nose. he is BROWN. Not dark bay, no matter how many people try to tell me other wise.
http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=30403637&id=1233330761
when he bleaches out a little and gets a bit dappled, he can look a bit bay. but the distinction is still there to the trained eye.
http://www.facebook.com/#/photo.php?pid=30796815&id=1233330761&fbid=1201890807429
Except that’s not correct 
Genetically brown horses can and do have black points, though it’s not a requirement.
The old “if there are black points it’s a bay” addage originated lonnnng before there was a test to show the genetic difference.
Brown is a LOT more common than many people think, and you can see that once you realize the difference
The first link doesn’t work for me, but the 2nd - :eek: NICE pony there! Yep, he’s a dark seal brown
Danosaur, he’s gorgeous!!
[QUOTE=JB;4510345]
Noooo, genetically they are different!
The Agouti position has different variations.
A is bay - whatever shade, that’s determined by other factors, but it’s still all bay.
At is brown - different form of Agouti. Currently only PetDNA tests for this.
A+ is Wild Bay - this can be minimal enough to practically be a “normal” bay, or it can be extensive enough that the leg points don’t even come up to to the pasterns and the mane and tail are not-quite-black.
The pics above of Remy (seal brown) and the bay show a nice contrast between the 2.
Brown vs bay vs lighter brown
Generally, the brown horse has golden/yellow undertones, while the bays have red/orange undertones.
Wild Bay[/QUOTE]
I’d like to know if the horses you posted were tested. Because they look like very normal sooty bays to me. Not browns. The pangare is just showing up a different shade which is exacerbated bu the sooty factor. Bays come in a wide variety of shades and not all have reddish undertones.
OK, my boy is registered as “brown” with AQHA. To me, he is a bay, but I am definitely not a color expert. I don’t have any summer pics, but he is more reddish in the summer, darker in the winter. He also has some roaning in places, that is not as visible in the winter, and his hind legs are not completely “true black” (more faded looking, tannish really) in places. Also, he has black stripes (almost like a tiger) on his nostrils. I have never seen another horse with stripes like that on the nostrils. Here are some pics late fall getting his winter coat in: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2613030280100130574clyLpl later in the winter, bodyclipped http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2976948440100130574dGDnLo
So, experts-- did they get it right? Is he really a brown? Also, has anyone ever seen a horse with nostril stripes? (sorry I don’t have any nostril pics!)
[QUOTE=JB;4513138]
Picture?
He may indeed be black, but fades. They can look seal brown when they do that.[/QUOTE]
JB–I’ve heard somewhere that there are two kinds of black, one that fades and one that doesn’t. Is that true?
