I just want to say a big THANK YOU to all of the vets on here and fellow vet techs! I think unless you do this job one cannot realize the incredible hard work we do. We rock, we really do!
A client of our had the two most adorable Cattle Dog puppies, Luke and Leia. Both super healthy throughout all their puppy visits. Luke came in at 6months to get neutered, did his pre-op bloodwork, all normal. Surgery very routine, woke up quickly from anesthesia, although a bit whiney afterwards unless somebody was petting him. There’s a photo of me sitting on the floor with him in my lap, surrounded by charts doing client call backs so he wouldn’t whine.
A month later Leia came in for her spay, same deal, all bloodwork looked great. Surgery was routine, then as they were putting in the last layer of skin sutures, her heart stopped. Immediately began CPR and administered epinephrine. Gave her a medication to reverse the pre-anesthetic medication she had been given. Nothing. Couldn’t get her back. Post mortem of the abdomen and chest gave no answers to why she died.
This was a clinic that did pre-op bloodwork, had an IV in place with fluids running, ECG, blood pressure, oxygenation monitoring. All were normal until they weren’t. Even in the best of cases things can go wrong, but if there hadn’t been that monitoring equipment in place, would anyone have noticed that the heart stopped until minutes later? If there hadn’t been an IV in place, would they be able to get one in? How much time would be wasted while they tried?
I worked in another clinic where they used suture that came on a big spool, similar to fishing line, where you just cut off however much you needed. It was a material that is very outdated because of its tendencies to cause reactions. They then threaded it onto reusable needles, which were rarely if ever sharpened. They didn’t have monitoring equipment, they used outdated anesthesia protocols, offered no pre-op bloodwork and I was the only employee there to have gone to technician school. During the time I worked there, every patient woke up from surgery. Could I use that experience like another poster to say that “over monitoring is unnecessary” because the clinic that monitored better lost a patient and this clinic hadn’t? Sure. Do I? No. Because I know it’s LUCK that patients weren’t dying right and left there. I also no longer work there because I couldn’t stand to watch some of the unnecessary risks they took, it just wasn’t worth it to me because eventually luck runs out.
By the way, the first clinic would have charged about $350 for that spay, the second one $250. I have a feeling most of their clients wouldn’t feel the $100 difference was worth the risks if they knew.
I can’t count the number of times people come in and tell me “He’s not my cat. I just feed him in the backyard. His name is Fluffy. I bring him in for vaccines once in a while.” I hate to tell you this Mister, that’s your cat. That’s the definition of being your cat.
When you bring the stray to the vet, you have taken responsibility for the cat. If you tried to ask the vet to keep the cat and find it a home, most would decline saying that they are not the SPCA. You are responsible for it.
I’m not trying to be difficult, just trying to explain that it is a business like any other and most of us can’t afford to give away our services. I work for someone else and I’m not allowed to do exams for free. I would be looking for a new job in the morning. It’s hard to look at it that way. I didn’t go to vet school to work that way, but it’s the hard truth.
[QUOTE=chism;8214390]
What does one do if their animal has complications after they take it home?[/QUOTE]
They come into our clinic or the emergency clinic and spend more in the long run. I don’t discount the need for low cost spay/neuter programs as I think they fill a needed population…rescue pets, feral cat population control, pet owners who can’t/ won’t pay for “full price” surgery. However, we have a low cost place about one hour from us and at least once a month are closing an incision that has opened and getting them on antibiotics. Most of the time it is just the skin that is open but a few months ago had a dachshund walk in with her intestines literally hanging out her intestines! Even scared me! About $800 later for surgical repair and a few days hospitalization for peritonitis that low cost didn’t work out too well.
I can say in my area, at least once a month we postpone a spay/ neuter due to blood work derangements. We have found pets with congenital kidney disease, liver shunts, and anemia. Most of the time we find low platelets secondary to a brewing tick disease as that is common in my area. Due to low platelets we obviously postpone surgery, treat the tick disease and then later perform surgery. Might not be such a good thing to do surgery with a decreased ability to clot!!
[QUOTE=sockmonkey;8214584]
I can’t count the number of times people come in and tell me “He’s not my cat. I just feed him in the backyard. His name is Fluffy. I bring him in for vaccines once in a while.” I hate to tell you this Mister, that’s your cat. That’s the definition of being your cat.
When you bring the stray to the vet, you have taken responsibility for the cat. If you tried to ask the vet to keep the cat and find it a home, most would decline saying that they are not the SPCA. You are responsible for it.
I’m not trying to be difficult, just trying to explain that it is a business like any other and most of us can’t afford to give away our services. I work for someone else and I’m not allowed to do exams for free. I would be looking for a new job in the morning. It’s hard to look at it that way. I didn’t go to vet school to work that way, but it’s the hard truth.[/QUOTE]
You are completely missing my point.
Low cost, “no frills” clinics and services have been disparaged on this thread by private veterinarians and staff.
I am pointing out that if not for these services, I would have literally zero options most of the time I come across a stray animal.
It sounds like you want people to “take responsibility for” every stray they come across by assuming the cost of taking it to your private clinic. That is not a sustainable model even for a wealthy person doing it long term, so again, I feel lucky that low cost and free clinics exist.
Should the OP utilize this service? Probably not, nor was she intending to. But it certainly has its place in the world.
I am not disparaging low cost clinics. Never in any of my posts did I. I am responding to people wondering why it costs $400 for a spay they can get at a low cost clinic for $60. You do not have to bring your found kitten to a private clinic. Take it to the spay/neuter clinic. But don’t be surprised when they turn you away as they do not do simple exams. They do spays and neuters. And that’s it.
I’d like to know where you live because there is nowhere around here where free clinics exist.
[QUOTE=sockmonkey;8214631]
I am not disparaging low cost clinics. Never in any of my posts did I. I am responding to people wondering why it costs $400 for a spay they can get at a low cost clinic for $60. You do not have to bring your found kitten to a private clinic. Take it to the spay/neuter clinic. But don’t be surprised when they turn you away as they do not do simple exams. They do spays and neuters. And that’s it.
I’d like to know where you live because there is nowhere around here where free clinics exist.[/QUOTE]
Many of the low/cost spay and neuter clinics are free for low income individuals. I don’t personally quality for free services, but someone I know who does has saved probably 10 kittens. He then finds them homes after they are vaccinated and spayed/neutered.
My found kitten was lucky enough to land in a home that was willing to take him on before he’d had any vet care and took him to see a private vet the morning he was picked up, thanks for asking. It is very uncommon to get that lucky in finding them homes since people are used to the (full) rescues and shelters practically giving away vaccinates, spayed/neutered kittens.
You still seem very offended that I dared state the fact that the private clinics near me were not willing to discount their visit fee for a stray to make the point that low cost clinics have their place. Since this discussion is now totally irrelevant to the OP, I’d be happy to continue to discuss via pm.
This makes me so happy I have a great small animal vet that does not rob people. The stories I hear and the justification they use for over charging people is insane.
My wife is a large animal vet and has done some small animal work so I have a clue about what is fair. $600.00 for a spay is a ripoff I don’t care how they justify it.
[QUOTE=sockmonkey;8214631]
I am not disparaging low cost clinics. Never in any of my posts did I. I am responding to people wondering why it costs $400 for a spay they can get at a low cost clinic for $60. You do not have to bring your found kitten to a private clinic. Take it to the spay/neuter clinic. But don’t be surprised when they turn you away as they do not do simple exams. They do spays and neuters. And that’s it.
I’d like to know where you live because there is nowhere around here where free clinics exist.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I hear a lot of people asking why a low cost clinic can can perform a surgery so inexpensively and why you’d pay more. For one, they can because they’re subsidized. Secondly, I’d pay more because I want the least risk possible and because I think that subsidies should be reserved for those who couldn’t afford the services otherwise. That, after all, is why people donate to those clinics.
There are some cheaper clinics associated with shelters here. Some of them do more than basic vaccines and spay and neuter surgeries.
http://www.mshoogys.com/spayneuter.htm
http://www.greatplainsspca.org/veterinary-care/
It is a trend that I, as a non vet, have mixed feelings about. On the one hand you see a lot of animals suffering whose owners just can’t afford the care. On the other hand, I agree that people expect state of the art care for the price of their insurance deductible. The equipment, payroll, etc. of running a vet office has to be expensive. It is a shame that people who don’t need the subsidies expect their own vet in private practice to work for free.
[QUOTE=Casey09;8214663]
It is a shame that people who don’t need the subsidies expect their own vet in private practice to work for free.[/QUOTE]
So you take all the strays you come across in to your private vet for full cost treatment?
I’m curious as to the portion of your budget that you set aside for that, as I know firsthand that it can get pricy and I am always looking to hear from others in the same position as to how they make it work.
[QUOTE=french fry;8214680]
So you take all the strays you come across in to your private vet for full cost treatment?
I’m curious as to the portion of your budget that you set aside for that, as I know firsthand that it can get pricy and I am always looking to hear from others in the same position as to how they make it work.[/QUOTE]
Oh my goodness no. Feral cats that are become barn cats I would take to the low cost clinic. Under their rules that is ok with them. I’m lucky to live near a good shelter. I found a kitten with an injury this winter and called Animal Control because with what I spend on my animals, I just couldn’t take a kitten I couldn’t keep to the emergency clinic or my vet. She went into foster and was adopted.
[QUOTE=sockmonkey;8214436]
I will never understand why people think that vets should waive fees for anything. Just because you found or rescued an animal does not mean we should do our job for free. We still have to pay our staff, our bills, light our lights, pay student loans. We don’t get to go to the grocery store and say to them, “if you really loved produce, you would give me that head of lettuce for free. Obviously you don’t really care about your job. You’re just in it for money.” You who is charging me $2.90 a gallon for gas, I just spayed a rescue dog for free, so I should get my gas for free. It doesn’t work like that. I don’t get free stuff, so why should anyone else. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? “I’m sorry head tech, I can’t pay you because we do cheap spays and everyone wants free exams for kittens they ‘found’. Maybe next week I can pay you.”
I’m sorry to be the one to break the news, but veterinary medicine is a business like any other. Yes, we love animals. Yes, we want to help you and your animals. If we really, really could, we would do it for free. But the sad reality is we can’t. You have to take on that burden yourself when you take on an animal. If you can’t afford the life long financial care of your pet, you should reconsider taking him on.
Part of the reason that veterinarians are suiciding so frequently recently is the empathy burnout and guilt from people who are demanding free/discounted services. It isn’t fair to put this on us. We are trying to provide the best medicine for your animals and for you given your financial constraints. It’s not an easy job.[/QUOTE]
Wow, it was $100 for my two spays a few years ago - but in a low income area.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8214656]
This makes me so happy I have a great small animal vet that does not rob people. The stories I hear and the justification they use for over charging people is insane.
My wife is a large animal vet and has done some small animal work so I have a clue about what is fair. $600.00 for a spay is a ripoff I don’t care how they justify it.[/QUOTE]
Location, location, location. If the vet is in an area with pricey rents and high salaries, the fees will be higher.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;8214771]
Location, location, location. If the vet is in an area with pricey rents and high salaries, the fees will be higher.[/QUOTE]
I am very aware of location. I am in the NE and nothing is cheap where I live. Vets within blocks of each other and prices vary drastically and what some vets want to test for and do is just another way of ripping people off. The guilt they put on people is another way of robbing them.
My vet is very fair and makes a great living. He has been married many times, bought his farm back from ex wives, owns race horses, vacation homes, puts kids through college,helps out family and still does very well. He has no idea why others charge so much and wonder how they sleep at night.
As for salary, the techs that we work on their horses get paid really poorly that work for the real expensive vets. They just get taken advantage of because that is their passion.
My aunt is a vet in the 4-corners area of Colorado and said for a 50-lb 6-month-old spay she would charge $160 full cost, prices can vary immensely depending on age and size though, up to $600 for an older very large dog, and even then maybe more as they may want to call in a surgeon.
They do, however, as a private clinic, do free subsidized spay/neuter for those in need through grants from Aspen Friends of Animals (or some such organization).
I honestly don’t remember how much it cost to have my dog spayed 4 years ago.
[QUOTE=Jim R;8214812]
I am very aware of location. I am in the NE and nothing is cheap where I live. Vets within blocks of each other and prices vary drastically and what some vets want to test for and do is just another way of ripping people off. The guilt they put on people is another way of robbing them.
My vet is very fair and makes a great living. He has been married many times, bought his farm back from ex wives, owns race horses, vacation homes, puts kids through college,helps out family and still does very well. He has no idea why others charge so much and wonder how they sleep at night.
As for salary, the techs that we work on their horses get paid really poorly that work for the real expensive vets. They just get taken advantage of because that is their passion.[/QUOTE]
In my practice a “full price spay” on a 50# dog is $320. Here is the break down of what it cost me to do that spay: $18 suture pack, $20 prep/surgery supplies (scrub, sterile gloves & gown, clippers and clipper blades) licensed tech/reception time about 2 hour ~ $28/ hour (that is paying $16/ hour+employee taxes/social security/medicaid/unemployement tax/ health insurance) that includes receptionist making appointment, getting them checked on on surgery day, getting sx room ready, attending during sx, recovering pet, cleaning surgery tools, rewrapping sx pack and autoclave, getting discharge meds & info sheet together , cleaning up sx room and then receptionist getting client checked out), anesthesia (propofol, morphine, isoflorane, oxygen) $30, blood work $48 (includes cost of machine lease, insurance, maintenance fee, blood tubes), IV cath & Fluids $12, meds to go home $10 and then there is the cost of business (electricity, loan, phone bill, insurance policies (property, liability, life), equipment maintenance, maintenance of computers, paper, printers/ ink, etc which I have figured out costs me $100/ hour to “run my business”. So my costs into the 50# spay are $100+18+20+ 56+30+10+48+12=294 and I haven’t paid myself yet nor accounted for any incidental costs (for example, it takes two IV catheters to get one in, needing tow techs to retrain for blood draw, etc).
So at $320 I am getting paid $26, not exactly robbing clients am I? Until you own your own business and see all the costs that go into actually running that business one can make all sorts of assumptions about costs being too high, vets ripping off clients, etc. As the for the vet that had race horses, vacation homes, multiple ex-wives, etc I have known them too. They made their money off property, family money that was invested well, etc…not purely from being a vet.
[QUOTE=Blume Farm;8215057]
In my practice a “full price spay” on a 50# dog is $320. Here is the break down of what it cost me to do that spay: $18 suture pack, $20 prep/surgery supplies (scrub, sterile gloves & gown, clippers and clipper blades) licensed tech/reception time about 2 hour ~ $28/ hour (that is paying $16/ hour+employee taxes/social security/medicaid/unemployement tax/ health insurance) that includes receptionist making appointment, getting them checked on on surgery day, getting sx room ready, attending during sx, recovering pet, cleaning surgery tools, rewrapping sx pack and autoclave, getting discharge meds & info sheet together , cleaning up sx room and then receptionist getting client checked out), anesthesia (propofol, morphine, isoflorane, oxygen) $30, blood work $48 (includes cost of machine lease, insurance, maintenance fee, blood tubes), IV cath & Fluids $12, meds to go home $10 and then there is the cost of business (electricity, loan, phone bill, insurance policies (property, liability, life), equipment maintenance, maintenance of computers, paper, printers/ ink, etc which I have figured out costs me $100/ hour to “run my business”. So my costs into the 50# spay are $100+18+20+ 56+30+10+48+12=294 and I haven’t paid myself yet nor accounted for any incidental costs (for example, it takes two IV catheters to get one in, needing tow techs to retrain for blood draw, etc).
So at $320 I am getting paid $26, not exactly robbing clients am I? Until you own your own business and see all the costs that go into actually running that business one can make all sorts of assumptions about costs being too high, vets ripping off clients, etc. As the for the vet that had race horses, vacation homes, multiple ex-wives, etc I have known them too. They made their money off property, family money that was invested well, etc…not purely from being a vet.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say charging $320 was charging to much. $600 is robbing them.
$320 seems fair to me, $600 not to fair.
Blume, I agree that $320 is reasonable. In my mind, spays should not be big money makers for a clinic. Charging your cost plus a small profit is fair. My friend recently paid $1000 when she took her 40lb, adopted from a rescue, 6 month old puppy for a spay. $1000 is unreasonable. When a clinic charges $1000, many owners will not get the dog spayed.
The clinic where my daughter works does their spay/neuters at cost. It is good for the community, and attracts a lot of new, long term clients.
For you that sounds reasonable, but for many it still sounds too high. IMHO it is too low as I would prefer to make more than $26 for a major surgery. I don’t know if $1000 is unreasonable for the practice mentioned. She may pay her employees more, she may offer more benefits to her employees, her business loan/student loan/other doctor salaries/electric bill/phone bill/etc may be significantly higher than mine. I got out of college + vet school with $70K in loans. Many vets today will have upwards of $150-200K in just student loans. Of course, I want pet owners to get their pets fixed and understand the need for cost to be reasonable. However, IMO that is what the low cost spay/neuter programs are for. We do them in my clinic as well, one day a week. We accept vouchers from our local shelter and do our own low cost program on those days as well. That is my “giving back to the community”. It does not really bring in new clients as much as folks will say it does. After almost 10 years of owning this practice probably only 5% of those low cost voucher folks actually become good standing clients. I would take a guess that the practice your daughter works at if they truly sat down and figured out how much they lose doing surgeries for cost versus how many of those folks become good clients later on they would no longer do it. The problem is most vets do not think like business people and put pen to paper. I don’t do it too often anymore either or I would look for another profession:-)
[QUOTE=AKB;8215308]
Blume, I agree that $320 is reasonable. In my mind, spays should not be big money makers for a clinic. Charging your cost plus a small profit is fair. My friend recently paid $1000 when she took her 40lb, adopted from a rescue, 6 month old puppy for a spay. $1000 is unreasonable. When a clinic charges $1000, many owners will not get the dog spayed.
The clinic where my daughter works does their spay/neuters at cost. It is good for the community, and attracts a lot of new, long term clients.[/QUOTE]
Most vets consider spays/neuters as a loss leader. We barely break even on them. People want cheaper spay/neuters, they want their meds from PetMeds, so we have to make up for that somewhere. So it comes from other places, like x-rays and IV drips. I agree to the poster who paid over $1000 for an x-ray and an IV drip that you WAY over paid. Radiographs at our practice are $125 for up to 5 x-rays. The problems with quoting IV drips is usually we hospitalize for them. There is no point is doing an IV drip for a typical working day (8 hrs). Average animal, 40 lbs on 50 ml per hr for 8 hrs gets 450 mls. I can give them that SQ and send them on their way for $29. But we will mark up meds, bloodwork, hospitalization, other diagnostics, because people want cheap spays/neuters and PetMeds. That’s how business works.
I can’t explain why a vet would charge $1000 for a 6-month old puppy spay. Forget that it is a rescue. That is an irrelevant description. The puppy doesn’t know it’s a rescue and neither do it’s body parts while it’s being spayed. The risks of surgery are the same. Vets do not do surgeries differently because a dog is a rescue versus an expensive show dog. Please stop using rescue/found/feral/not mine/made up/fantasy as an excuse for it should be cheaper.
I know vets who charge $1000 for spays. It is usually a 10 month old Great Dane who needs a gastropexy at the same time. Or a 6 year old fat Lab that has already had 4 litters of puppies. Those are difficult and/or dangerous spays. Most people think spays are “routine” surgeries. Personally, I’d rather do a cystotomy to remove bladder stones, or gastrotomy to remove a foreign body from the stomach. They are much easier surgeries. There is less chance of bleeding out as they don’t involve as many blood vessels as a spay, particularly in a fat or in heat dog.
There is no such thing as a routine surgery. Ever.
