Spin Off from Rescues thread - it's not the breeders

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Countrywood;8323184]
Nation wide regulations have never been tried so nobody knows if they would work.

My county has breeding laws but they are circumvented by breeders advertising on CL , they get around for law by not advertising the puppies for sale but that they are “re homing” them and charging a “re homing fee”…(that happens to be a few hundred $) I heard there is a petition against these CL ads I need to find it and perhaps post a link so people can sign it.[/QUOTE]

In Kentucky I report them to the state sales tax division. That usually puts a crimp in their business. None of them are collecting and reporting sales tax.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;8323385]
In Kentucky I report them to the state sales tax division. That usually puts a crimp in their business. None of them are collecting and reporting sales tax.[/QUOTE]

Well, it worked to nab Capone.

[RPM]

It is interesting that in these countries where s/n is rare, they have no dog overpopulation problems.

Or is it rather that in countries where there is no dog overpopulation problems, spay neuter is rare?

Houndhill, are there any puppy mills in Scandinavia? Do they have leash laws, and are those laws enforced? Is there any regulation as to who can breed, and waht breed to what breed, and when? Is there a market for mutts with “designer” names, such as Puggles, Labradoodles, Cockapoos, and “Finnish Elkhounds” (hypothetical Norwegian Elkhound-Finnish Spitz mix)?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=RPM;8323870]
Or is it rather that in countries where there is no dog overpopulation problems, spay neuter is rare?

Houndhill, are there any puppy mills in Scandinavia? Do they have leash laws, and are those laws enforced? Is there any regulation as to who can breed, and waht breed to what breed, and when? Is there a market for mutts with “designer” names, such as Puggles, Labradoodles, Cockapoos, and “Finnish Elkhounds” (hypothetical Norwegian Elkhound-Finnish Spitz mix)?[/QUOTE]

That is semantics.

I think the need for ‘special’ breeds is something unique to the US, the urge to be special.

But from what I can tell, the dog keeping culture is different in europe.

Of course there are puppy mills. Most of them are in the eastern part though, and that is where you have to go to get dogs with cropped ears.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=RPM;8323870]
Or is it rather that in countries where there is no dog overpopulation problems, spay neuter is rare?

Houndhill, are there any puppy mills in Scandinavia? Do they have leash laws, and are those laws enforced? Is there any regulation as to who can breed, and waht breed to what breed, and when? Is there a market for mutts with “designer” names, such as Puggles, Labradoodles, Cockapoos, and “Finnish Elkhounds” (hypothetical Norwegian Elkhound-Finnish Spitz mix)?[/QUOTE]

I am certainly no expert in all things dog related in Scandinavia.

But this is what I do know.

As far as I know, there are no puppy mills in Sweden, Norway, or Finland.

Yes, they have leash laws, and yes they are enforced.

I do not know whether there is a market for crossbred “designer” dogs.

There is a thriving dog show culture, very active kennel clubs, and they produce very good dogs of many breeds. The kennel clubs are huge advocates of health testing and leaders in matters pertaining to maintaining genetic diversity in purebred dogs. They are internationally recognized for efforts on behalf of dog welfare.

PS I have not included Denmark in my remarks, though they may well be as examplenary as Sweden, Norway, and Finland, but I only have first-hand knowledge of one Danish breeder, and though she is a terrific breeder, I just don’t know enough about the country to offer any sort of informed opinion about Danish dog culture.

And yes, I have been to Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

[RPM]

That is semantics.

It is indeed. And semantics form a base of our verbal communication – or lack thereof – with each other.

I don’t agree that there is any “need” for “special” breeds in the US. There is a desire for them, in some quarters. But desire does not produce a need.

Houndhill, thanks for answering all my questions!

It kinda makes me wonder about all the Scandinavians and other Europeans who immigrated to the US so long ago. Wonder if those historically touted desires for freedom of religion and economic opportunity haven’t been bred down and bred down until now, after generations of living in America, they are manifested in the freedom to breed dogs indiscriminately, with no regard for breed standards, or to set new arbitrary standards, and to mix breeds just to see what one can come up with and sell on the free market?

Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek there. But my questions about Scandinavia were serious, and I really do appreciate your taking the time to answer them. :yes:

[LauraKY]

It’s all of the above and the common word is irresponsible. Irresponsible breeders, irresponsible owners, irresponsible shelters (those who adopt out dogs without spay/neuter). It’s mostly a cultural problem. There should be a focus on free and low cost spay and neuter, free spay/neuter for breeds that no one wants when they overload the shelters. There should be an incentive for people to have their pets speutered in areas with a high number of intact animals…gift cards, a drawing for a big prize, like a big screen TV.

Fines and legislation doesn’t work in an area where it’s a cultural problem.

And let’s shut down those puppy mills!

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=RPM;8324387]

It kinda makes me wonder about all the Scandinavians and other Europeans who immigrated to the US so long ago. Wonder if those historically touted desires for freedom of religion and economic opportunity haven’t been bred down and bred down until now, after generations of living in America, they are manifested in the freedom to breed dogs indiscriminately, with no regard for breed standards, or to set new arbitrary standards, and to mix breeds just to see what one can come up with and sell on the free market?

Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek there. But my questions about Scandinavia were serious, and I really do appreciate your taking the time to answer them. :yes:[/QUOTE]

LOL

But probably not.

‘breeding’ - of people - does persist through several generations.
But if you have a cluster of like minded people, I am sure it creates ‘culture’ that persists.

I mean, half my family tree persists of ‘waste not, want not’ Mennonite rearing, it’s a trade I can detect more now than ever in myself, even though the ‘line’ was broken over a generation ago.

[suz]

I’ve read that some places sell /adopt pets only from shelters, and this seems like a workable partial solution. Given the strict rules so many shelters have it could also cut down on the impulse buys which pet stores encourage.

[QUOTE=khall;8322073]
What about the designer dog craze? Are they responsible breeders? Is having 16-17 litters a year being a responsible breeder? IMO No, but people will buy them (have a friend that bought 2 labradoodles) for whatever reason.

Puppy mills with bad care and sick dogs is another whole different issue. Recently Pet Land has been in the news here in GA selling sick puppies, puppy mill puppies with genetic issues and other problems. I just wished people would educate themselves before adopting or buying, understand what they are getting into regardless of the dog.[/QUOTE]

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=suz;8325457]
I’ve read that some places sell /adopt pets only from shelters, and this seems like a workable partial solution. Given the strict rules so many shelters have it could also cut down on the impulse buys which pet stores encourage.[/QUOTE]

It would also work if owners would buy/ adopt dogs only from responsible breeders, who would screen to make sure buyers had fences/supervision, provide lifetime support, take back dogs who the owners could not or would not keep, did appropriate health testing of parents, selected parents with good temperaments, socialized puppies, and made sure the breed was a good fit for the owners.

[pezk]

[QUOTE=RPM;8324387]
It is indeed. And semantics form a base of our verbal communication – or lack thereof – with each other.

I don’t agree that there is any “need” for “special” breeds in the US. There is a desire for them, in some quarters. But desire does not produce a need.

Houndhill, thanks for answering all my questions!

It kinda makes me wonder about all the Scandinavians and other Europeans who immigrated to the US so long ago. Wonder if those historically touted desires for freedom of religion and economic opportunity haven’t been bred down and bred down until now, after generations of living in America, they are manifested in the freedom to breed dogs indiscriminately, with no regard for breed standards, or to set new arbitrary standards, and to mix breeds just to see what one can come up with and sell on the free market?

Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek there. But my questions about Scandinavia were serious, and I really do appreciate your taking the time to answer them. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Who are you to say that a “special breed” isn’t necessary? That argument can be made for lots of breeds of dogs. Many, if not most don’t fulfill their working heritage. Most border collies don’t herd sheep anymore for ex. So they shouldn’t be bred anymore because most people aren’t herding sheep?
As far as breed stds- who is determining the std? American breeders aren’t anything to brag about. Real working dogs aren’t bred in the US. Just facsimiles. Many police go to Eastern Europe for their GSDs because American breeders produce such a poor imitation of a GSD.
When you ban breeding, you ban dogs which it sounds like some of the posters here would love to do.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=pezk;8325692]
Who are you to say that a “special breed” isn’t necessary? That argument can be made for lots of breeds of dogs. Many, if not most don’t fulfill their working heritage. Most border collies don’t herd sheep anymore for ex. So they shouldn’t be bred anymore because most people aren’t herding sheep?
As far as breed stds- who is determining the std? American breeders aren’t anything to brag about. Real working dogs aren’t bred in the US. Just facsimiles. Many police go to Eastern Europe for their GSDs because American breeders produce such a poor imitation of a GSD.
When you ban breeding, you ban dogs which it sounds like some of the posters here would love to do.[/QUOTE]

I assume you are just asking a rhetorical question, but in case you’re not - breed clubs determine the breed standards. And yes, everyone always picks the same two breeds to rant about (GSDs & Bulldogs) but there are actually hundreds of other breeds out there. You may not like the standard, but it doesn’t mean that it’s inherently bad or good - certainly not unless you know a lot about it. (Which is why I always get annoyed that “laymen” bitch about the GSD standards but have probably never read them.)

There is nothing wrong with creating a new breed - certainly that’s how all dog breeds began. But creating a new breed of dog is more than just letting other random dogs reproduce. It has to start with a standard and selecting breeding individuals over generations based on identified attributes. Most of the “designer” breeds out there are nothing close to this - and that is why they are not “breeds” and those that produce them are not “breeders” (in my opinion). They are mutts produced by idiots looking to make money…and nothing else.

I am 100% against the concept of “banning breeders.” (As are most people, actually.) But I am against idiots that produce mutts.

[MistyBlue]

Well, some great working dogs are bred here. But in general, the most well known/popular types of working breeds are better produced and controlled out of this country.
But I could be biased because one of my favorite breeds is the Alaskan Malamute.
We also have some fantastic kennels producing wonderful hunting hounds. And nobody breeds Chessies like the USA. There are also some top winning standard poodle breeders here in the USA…and by winning I don’t mean in a show ring with silly clip-jobs. I mean in the field hunting like a Spoo is supposed to do!

But if I want a top-bred spitz type, I’d probably try to shop in Japan. Now they know how to protect lines and purity and produce true-to-type dogs that haven’t changed since ancient times. I’d kill to get my mitts on a Shikoku.

I think our perceptions of popularity or amount of actual working dogs doing their actual jobs may be different not just from region to region, but also from person to person. I’d hazard a guess that about 50% of the people I know personally/well with dogs have working dogs that work. I have friends with working JRTs, full time ratters and critter control. A lot of friends with working cattle dogs, but a lot of my friends have dairy farms and/or have beeves. A few with LGDs that actually guard their livestock. A ton of hunting friends with setters, pointers, labs, Chessies and hounds…all doing what they were created to do. I have a friend a couple towns over who always has a couple/few GSDs…that do their original jobs as herding dogs. (there’s a reason the word Shepherd is in the breed name, LOL) A whole group of friends who are mushers…either with distance, racing or weights. Most of the people I know with Aussie shepherds have them as working dogs.

And I don’t live in the boondocks somewhere (though it sounds like my kind of place) but in Connecticut. And yet most of the people I know have working dogs with jobs. They adore their dogs, but their dogs have a purpose and job and they do those jobs. And work as hard as their owners work. And love their jobs. There’s not much I find as soul-soothing to watch as a purpose-bred animal doing what it was meant to do, doing it well and enjoying doing it.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;8325757]

But if I want a top-bred spitz type, I’d probably try to shop in Japan. Now they know how to protect lines and purity and produce true-to-type dogs that haven’t changed since ancient times. I’d kill to get my mitts on a Shikoku.

I think our perceptions of popularity or amount of actual working dogs doing their actual jobs may be different not just from region to region, but also from person to person. [/QUOTE]

Just curious how the Japanese protect breeding lines? Is it like the German pointer DK registry? (Which is sort of like a warmblood registry?) My field trainer is preparing his bitch for her DK field test and it’s a lot of work.

I also agree with your next statement but that perceptions of a “correct” or “working” dog depends on many factors. Even in my own breed, that does not have a huge split between show and field types - there are still breeding preferences for the field dogs. The field trial people consider a closer working dog (that might compete in a Hunt Test to be inferior (“not a real field dog”) or a “show dog” that goes in the field sometimes.