Spin off: Round Penning

[Lori]

Just yesterday, I received an email about this study through The Horse:

“During round pen training researchers got similar results from an inanimate object as from a human, which indicates that this method relies on applying a stimulus that elicits fear, and then rewarding horses by removing said stimulus.” Video clip on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1BDTBdEMNE

I am sure this will ruffle the NH world feathers. Or maybe start a new remote controlled round pen trend for the uber lazy…

I am an old timer in the horse world. I grew up studying the old masters of equitation and western training. After 38 years, I am still learning. I won’t live long enough to ever consider myself a master.
I have been skeptical of the trendy NH showmen since their “arrival”. they really are nothing new, just something new to humans no longer attached to animals for survival.
The quick fix is appealing to the instant gratification that our society demands, so I do understand why what they do would be interesting to a large audience.

In my experience, a horse is a horse, not technology. There is no one size fits all that these NH gurus are selling.
While we have come a long way, we have also reverted since the horse is no longer a means for a living or transportation. In this country horses are viewed as a hobby or a rich mans game. It is sad, really, for these animals that man has relied on over the centuries.

[Kyzteke]

@Lori;6592702

Just yesterday, I received an email about this study through The Horse:

“During round pen training researchers got similar results from an inanimate object as from a human, which indicates that this method relies on applying a stimulus that elicits fear, and then rewarding horses by removing said stimulus.” Video clip on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1BDTBdEMNE

I am sure this will ruffle the NH world feathers. Or maybe start a new remote controlled round pen trend for the uber lazy…

I am an old timer in the horse world. I grew up studying the old masters of equitation and western training. After 38 years, I am still learning. I won’t live long enough to ever consider myself a master.
I have been skeptical of the trendy NH showmen since their “arrival”. they really are nothing new, just something new to humans no longer attached to animals for survival.
The quick fix is appealing to the instant gratification that our society demands, so I do understand why what they do would be interesting to a large audience.

In my experience, a horse is a horse, not technology. There is no one size fits all that these NH gurus are selling.
While we have come a long way, we have also reverted since the horse is no longer a means for a living or transportation. In this country horses are viewed as a hobby or a rich mans game. It is sad, really, for these animals that man has relied on over the centuries.

That’s funny that, as an “old timer” you just heard of round penning. It’s old as the hills. Indians used to do it, using.

THat study equated the response to a mechanical object (the car)from a horse to be the same as he would act towards a human, who can adjust their body language each second to communicate with the horse.

It’s nonsense. There is no one size fits all when it comes to horse training and never has been. ANY good horse trainer knows this and always has known this.

As far as “the good old days,” I’m betting horses all over the world are glad those days are over.

Did you know there are more horses in the world now then there were a century ago? And they, on average, live longer.

Just because people used horses for a job doesn’t mean they were kind to them…horses are being treated much better overall than they were.

As far as round-penning…well, if some out of work scientist Down Under wants to chase horses with a mechanical car, have at it.

I’m sure the horse would rather be chased by a car than a mountain lion…

[Lori]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;6593096]
That’s funny that, as an “old timer” you just heard of round penning. It’s old as the hills. Indians used to do it, using.

.[/QUOTE]

What is funny is that for some reason you feel I never heard of round penning. I have used it myself, but not following any NH guru’s methods. My post was about the study and what others may think of it. I had been reading the Clinton Anderson thread and the user’s responses to that one when The Horse sent me the round pen study via email.

I am sorry if you misunderstood my original post.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Lori;6592702]
they really are nothing new, just something new to humans no longer attached to animals for survival.[/QUOTE]

this is probably an over simplistic view.

I think that there is new knowledge, or perhaps a better way of describing how animals learn now than there was in the past.

I often hear about “feel”. You have to have “feel”. I don’t get this at all.

What I think happened, but was incorrectly described, is that the individuals who were more successful with horses had better timing, understood to raise criteria and most of the time had a fuzzy understanding of what they were doing so described it with emotional terms rather than more precise verbage.

[Foxtrot_s]

What I took from Lori’s post is she was referring to the new(ish) craze of NH gurus teaching NH practices which the world is awash in these days…not that the actual horsemanship of it is new.

[Lori]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;6594462]
What I took from Lori’s post is she was referring to the new(ish) craze of NH gurus teaching NH practices which the world is awash in these days…not that the actual horsemanship of it is new.[/QUOTE]

YES, thank you Foxtrot!!! Precisely.
I wish my original post was stated so clearly.

[re-runs]

I tell anyone that is interested to get as close to the source as possible. Students of Tom or Bill Dorrance or Ray Hunt understand the use of the rp the best.

What a rp is not…

A place to chase the horse until it is tired.

A place to take advantage of the horse where it can`t get away.

A place to longe the horse without a line.

What the rp is…

A place to move the horses feet enough to get its attention and form a relationship with it by untracking its feet, then flexing and allowing the horse to face up. A prey animal such as a horse, when frightened will use its flight response and run appox. 1/4 mile (a safe distance) before it turns around and faces the predator. It doesnt matter that much if the 1/4 mile is run in a straight line or a circle conformed by the circumference of a rp, so after enough steps (approx. 1/4 mile isn`t all that far, not that many rotations of a 60 foot rp. Certainly not enough rotations to tire the average horse out) the horse can be ready, with the correct approach, to look at the person standing in the middle, with interest. You have to have a horses attention before you can do anything with it.

A place to keep it close enough that a person can read the horses body language and the horse can read the persons so that the beginnings of trust can be established.

All this takes an understanding of how horses think and how they percieve us.

FEEL is something that comes from nature. “What I am talking about most people do not know exists.” Ray Hunt.

Think of a huge school of fish or a large flock of birds, all keeping a pillow of space between each other but all turning in unison as if to dance. They don`t knock into eachother because they all have “feel” for what the other birds/fish around them are doing. All animals that live in large groups have “feel” for one another, it helps them survive. If you want to move with your horse as one, the horse feeling of you, and you feeling back to your horse, then you have to have this understanding aura about you…this lineless communication that goes beyond sound or touch. Feel is an understanding that two organisms have for eachother that benefits each one separately yet each one is part of the whole.

I just finished watching Buck Brannamans new DVD series; 7 Clinics. I hightly recommend it.

[threedogpack]

@re-runs;6595626

All this takes an understanding of how horses think and how they percieve us.

but see, this is where it gets fuzzy. I have no idea how each of my horses “percieve me”. And if I have a clue today, that might change tomorrow. What I can see, is behavior. Horse faces me, horse doesn’t face me.

FEEL is something that comes from nature. “What I am talking about most people do not know exists.” Ray Hunt.

Think of a huge school of fish or a large flock of birds, all keeping a pillow of space between each other but all turning in unison as if to dance. They don`t knock into eachother because they all have “feel” for what the other birds/fish around them are doing. All animals that live in large groups have “feel” for one another, it helps them survive. If you want to move with your horse as one, the horse feeling of you, and you feeling back to your horse, then you have to have this understanding aura about you…this lineless communication that goes beyond sound or touch. Feel is an understanding that two organisms have for eachother that benefits each one separately yet each one is part of the whole.

far far too fuzzy.

if you take a goose and insert that goose into a flock of sparrows, feel goes right out the window. If feel is dependent on species, then it ain’t gonna happen between people and horses.

Now if you say you are moving the horses feet until the horse faces up…that’s concrete and something you can teach another horse or another human.

these are the things that have changed. Very good trainers look for behaviors, they define the behavior they want and find a way to get it. Then they can replicate that with other horses. They might have to tweak it or break a behavior down into more manageable pieces…but it isn’t about “feel”, it’s really about observation, criteria and reward (even if reward is quitting)

[re-runs]

“but see, this is where it gets fuzzy. I have no idea how each of my horses “percieve me”. And if I have a clue today, that might change tomorrow. What I can see, is behavior. Horse faces me, horse doesn’t face me.”

The devil is in the subtleties…the details. Yes, it might change tomorrow, then youll have to re-establish your relationship and prove to your horse that you are trustworthy and predictable. We are also constantly being observed by our horses.......Dont you think they know when you come walking down the barn aisle and you have had a fight with your boss or your spouse? Of course they do, they can tell from your energy, by how hard your boot heel hits the ground with each stride, how you swing your arms, the tension in your spine. Horses are constantly AWARE (unless they have been shut down.)

“far far too fuzzy.”

If you think it`s too fuzzy, then it will be.

“if you take a goose and insert that goose into a flock of sparrows, feel goes right out the window. If feel is dependent on species, then it ain’t gonna happen between people and horses.”

The geese are aware of the sparrows and the sparrows are aware of the geese, perhaps they do not have a need to take it farther than that. I know this because I have hooked on wild deer.

“Now if you say you are moving the horses feet until the horse faces up…that’s concrete and something you can teach another horse or another human.”

That is just the obvious, I can tell you there is a lot more going on for you to read in the horse than just facing up. That is why you cannot just follow a method or a technique, you have to be able to read the horse and it changes from second to second and each horse is different and each person is different and it is different on a different day. BUT…that`s what makes it fun and exciting and worthwhile. It is never boring when you know what to look for.

“these are the things that have changed. Very good trainers look for behaviors, they define the behavior they want and find a way to get it. Then they can replicate that with other horses. They might have to tweak it or break a behavior down into more manageable pieces…but it isn’t about “feel”, it’s really about observation, criteria and reward (even if reward is quitting)”

You have a start in understanding this! Horses learn from the release.

Good, keep going.

Methods, techniques, rules, mechanical means, will only get a person so far. It will appear to work very good on some horses, maybe for some time. People who keep looking for deeper answers are the ones who finally look up Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt/ their students. They usually go looking because they have a horse that the usual “methods” do not work on and they don`t want to discard the horse.

It all depends on how good you want to get at this horsemanship stuff. Some are satisfied to be, as Ray H. described “surface workers” and that is fine for some people, they are getting by with that but…if you really want to be a true horseman then you never stop looking for answers and furthering your education. The fun for me is in the learning and new discovery and I have been around horses a long long time and I am still slowly figuring this out. (Peeling the onion)

[Lori]

re-runs, very well explained posts! Thank you.

I only have the old books like Ray Hunt, Dave Jones, Ed Connell and (I cannot remember which) Dorrance book, etc.
I just don’t understand why the newer guys have to add so many gimmicks. It gets confusing to me.

[VaqueroToro]

[QUOTE=Lori;6597262]
re-runs, very well explained posts! Thank you.

I only have the old books like Ray Hunt, Dave Jones, Ed Connell and (I cannot remember which) Dorrance book, etc.
I just don’t understand why the newer guys have to add so many gimmicks. It gets confusing to me.[/QUOTE]

Put a new name on an old concept so you can sell it as yours. Add a bit of a flourish so it looks different. Etc, etc.

In the later editions of “True Horsemanship by Feel” there’s a paragraph or two added in – I think it was a separate slip of paper in the first printing – that goes along the lines of horsemanship by feel is handed down (or to) from one friend to another and it’s not for sale. It’s one thing to run a clinic or two to help people out with these concepts than it is to try to sell a product line. Everybody’s gotta eat, but I think there’s a real difference when people try to pass the info along to the benefit of the horse and human than to just sell the look (custom halters, whips, sticks, lead lines, DVDs etc) but not the meat and potatoes of inner understanding.