Spinoff bit topic: side reins

[Pocket_Pony]

I haven’t used side reins on the pony, but when I was watching the Myler video posted in the bitting thread, I got to wondering why we use side reins adjusted on the lowest setting, when ultimately we want the horse to accept our hands above their withers?

If we don’t ride with our hands down by our knees, why do we attach side reins there? I would imagine it certainly changes the position of the bit in the horse’s mouth and/or how the bit functions if the reins are low. If we don’t pull down on the horse’s mouth with our hands, why do we attach side reins there and say that’s okay?

Really, I’m curious. I know it is a tool that’s been used forever, and many people use them either regularly, or at specific times in a horse’s training. But if it doesn’t ultimately mimic what we’re going to do with the horse under saddle, then why is it done?

I’m sure people will say “to teach balance” or “to teach contact” - but again, if it isn’t the kind of contact we would otherwise want in the saddle, then why?

[SendenHorse]

I don’t attach them low, for that very reason. I might use that position if all i have is a girth/saddle, but it’s not the best option.

[partlycloudy]

I will start with them low, and gradually move them to higher rings on the surcingle as the horse progresses.

[beowulf]

Well, think of the training pyramid. The horse doesn’t just start training in an upright, collected frame.

With rhythm and contact, we work on the horse accepting the bit, but the horse is not collected. At training, you usually see a horse who is working on rhythm and light contact - his head will usually be lower, his topline flat and without much angle - when you get to first level you start to see more of an uphill carriage, with a curved flatline and steeper croup as they step under themselves, etc, etc. The further you get up the pyramid, the higher the headset - not because of frame, but because the further you get along the more you are able to get the horse to step under himself and lift himself up.

I always start by the girth with side-reins. Once the horse understands contact, I’ll move to between the keepers and the girth and work on long and low. This might take a while depending on the work load (I don’t like to lunge often), but long & low helps teach the horse to reach for the contact and push forward. Once the horse understands there is flexion at the poll you can introduce a higher side-rein set up, but IMHO if you introduce the higher side-rein set up when they are green they don’t learn that if they yield to the bit the pressure goes away, because they usually don’t think to flex their poll. The pressure just isn’t there either unless you super-crank the side-reins, which I don’t like to do. YMMV.

[merrygoround]

The point of side reins is not only to teach the horse to accept the bit, but also to allow him to engage the muscles in his back. In all warm up I expect a horse for the first 10-15 minutes to be going forward,head down and only slightly round, I want to see the back swing and the rider to be in rising trot, going energetically forward, the horse is working on a longer rein. The same with side reins.

When a horse reaches 2nd and Third level side reins are raised to a higher level, after an initial start low. This usually involves adding a surcingle as an overgirth or just a surcingle alone.

[Pocket_Pony]

Yes, I understand the theory behind accepting the contact. But my point is, with the reins in that position (directly to the side), we are activating the bit in the horse’s mouth in a different manner than we would when we are riding. By changing the position of the bit to a low position, it seems to me that we would be more pulling on the lower jaw than asking the horse to give to an aid for flexion. It seems more akin to the “lower your hands and see-saw” way of getting your horse “on the bit” than the “squeeze with one rein for lateral flexion and then release” way of introducing the horse to the bit.

I understand that we ultimately would like the horse’s nose to be on the vertical, but it is HOW you get there in side reins that I am questioning. If lateral flexion comes before longitudinal flexion and under saddle we teach the horse to bend and flex laterally from a combination of aids (reins above the withers being one of them, along with seat and leg) and the result of the lateral flexion is longitudinal flexion, then why do we lunge with side reins in a fixed position that asks for the horse’s head to come down because the reins are there and they said so?

A horse doesn’t have to be in side reins to engage the muscles of his back. Nor does he have to wear side reins for the head to be down. If we want the horse to always come from a place of wanting to go forward with freedom and expression, then don’t side reins present a blocking of some sort?

Ack! I have to go to work but I have more explaining and questioning.

I’m not here to be anti-side-rein, and I have used them before myself, I just had an a-ha thought and am interested in really thinking about the mechanics of it, not just doing it because it is how things are done and giving pat answers of why.

[emipou]

This is an interesting topic.

I don’t 100% understand some of the why’s behind everything I do still. We are learning a lot as we go, under the instruction of my trainer.

I tend to longe before most rides because she is still a difficult horse for me and it helps to establish “work” without the burden of “me”.

We switch between side reins and no side reins. They do help her reach more into contact. I never tighten her into a frame, it is strictly her reaching forward into them and establishing her own contact. When she does this, she tends not to fall on the forehand as much during our longing. However, I also don’t want this to be a crutch that we rely on, so I don’t always use the side reins.

When I am longing in the surcingle and not the saddle, the side reins are attached more closer to her whither since she has a higher set neck.

[no.stirrups]

Side reins should be attached so that they are horizontal when the horse’s head is in the desired position. If the side-reins are attached higher than that they invited curling, and if they are attached lower than that they interfere with balance. If you watch a bunch of horses longeing, you will see that this is consistently true. I don’t entirely understand why this is different than when the horse is under saddle, except that there must be some difference when it is a live contact.

As the horse gets stronger, it will naturally begin to shorten it’s frame and raise its neck. It takes a sharp eye to see this happening so that the side-reins may be shortened and raised to support the new balance. So correctly done, the side-reins are not raised and shortened to create a more advanced frame, the horse gets stronger and more balanced which enable it to travel in a more elevated frame and the side-reins are adjusted to follow that. Make sense? Done this way they are not blocking.

The flexion piece you have backward. There can’t be correct lateral flexion without longitudinal flexion. When riding I often use lateral flexion exercises to achieve longitudinal flexion, so I can see where the confusion comes from, but the reason that works is because in order to flex laterally the horse must flex longitudinally. It can flex longitudinally without flexing laterally.

You raise excellent questions, and I bet you will reply to this with more!

[TB_or_not_TB]

You have to position the side reins lower or else the horse will curl under in its attempt to stretch over the top line, because side reins cannot follow the horse’s mouth down and out. You are acting on the bars of the mouth differently than if you are holding the rein (applying direct pressure to the bars rather than lifting the bit higher in the mouth as with a proper contact). Whether this is something you feel is beneficial to your program is a judgement call. Think about why we take a contact that follows the mouth - because a fixed hand forces the horse the pivot around the bit. This is a bigger issue at the walk and canter than the trot. Putting the side reins lower minimizes the curling that the horse has to do if he is to retain a solid contact because the pivot point is not as severe, but there is no getting around this issue with side reins.

I threw out the side reins long ago for the reasons you are questioning. A Chambon will allow the horse to take a contact that follows and lets him stretch his neck down and out, and also will not hold him in a frame that he can’t carry (which side reins do, and can promote hollowness for this reason). You are right on to question the mechanics, no matter how popular something is. If you choose to use side reins you can now do so with a greater understanding of how to apply them for your intended purposes.

[belgianWBLuver]

@Pocket Pony;8308850

Yes, I understand the theory behind accepting the contact. But my point is, with the reins in that position (directly to the side), we are activating the bit in the horse’s mouth in a different manner than we would when we are riding. By changing the position of the bit to a low position, it seems to me that we would be more pulling on the lower jaw than asking the horse to give to an aid for flexion. It seems more akin to the “lower your hands and see-saw” way of getting your horse “on the bit” than the “squeeze with one rein for lateral flexion and then release” way of introducing the horse to the bit.

I understand that we ultimately would like the horse’s nose to be on the vertical, but it is HOW you get there in side reins that I am questioning.
…

The whole idea in first attaching side reins from the bit to the girth (the lower position) is they they learn to stretch the back muscles and strengthen the posterior (or hind end) by encouraging it to push the horse fwd. The head is lower causing the stretching action of the neck, back and lower back. The horse is encouraged to be really forward in order to work and build up these areas.

Yes you may say you know all this. However these stages must be accomplished before the horse can be asked to start to lift his head and neck, flex from the pole and move the weight back towards the posterior.

These lower stages must be done slowly along with impulsion to really allow the horse to find balance, supple his body and strengthen.

Side reins aren’t the only tool that I use. Sometimes on a really spooky unsteady horse (one that may, in the beginning, freak out even on loose side reins) I’ll use the elastic bungies. They are breakable, do the job and are more safe than side reins. Little by little I’ll introduce a side rein with elastic inserts for more safety.

I also do the Flexions, and one of them that I do is to teach to horse to lower his head when I raise both reins. When he understands well I translate this exercise to in the saddle. Its has worked well for me over the years and I can transistion from the horse having a nice contact with the bit to achieving the long and low as I raise my hands (continuing to maintain a connection to his mouth but with a longer rein). All with continued impulsion at all 3 gaits.
Eventually like where my current guy is, I can just simply start to lengthen the reins and he searches to contact, lowers his head and stretches out his neck and back.
All of this thanks to the patience work in side reins, a chambon or bungies done correctly.

[belgianWBLuver]

@no.stirrups;8310246

As the horse gets stronger, it will naturally begin to shorten it’s frame and raise its neck. It takes a sharp eye to see this happening so that the side-reins may be shortened and raised to support the new balance. So correctly done, the side-reins are not raised and shortened to create a more advanced frame, the horse gets stronger and more balanced which enable it to travel in a more elevated frame and the side-reins are adjusted to follow that. Make sense? Done this way they are not blocking.
…

Yes…

[Pocket_Pony]

Thank you for the input, but I was looking for more of a biomechanical understanding, not a theory, which I do already understand.

After some Googling, I found information that more directly answers my question.

[no.stirrups]

So are you going to share?

[Scribbler]

I don’t use side reins. My coach has shown me how to get the horse stretching to the bit through in-hand work, and we started lateral flexions early. Only now after a couple of years we are starting collection and asking for longitudinal flexing at the poll, from the saddle. I don’t feel like there is anything we missed through not doing side reins.

On the other hand, I don’t think I have seen side reins ever used as described in the comments above. I do see them used very tight and low on green horses to give a desired headset from the start, which is rolled a bit behind the vertical and “round,” meaning broken at the second or third vertebrae. And yes, under saddle, this often does mean the rider has to have hands as low as possible, below the level of the withers, straight elbows, to come as close as possible to the side rein effect. The riders understand that they need to put their full weight on the reins to keep the horse round, and use constant leg, and that it’s normal for their hands and arms to hurt after riding.

[Pocket_Pony]

It was a combination of a few articles and postings on Dr. Deb Bennett’s ESI website (probably should have gone there first if looking for biomechanical stuff) and another website I found that talked about musculature engagement, etc. Unfortunately I’ve got to get ready for work right now (I only have a bit of time to spend on COTH), but if you are interested enough to go to the ESI website and search around, you can find some answers.

It is neither pro nor con with regard to using side reins, except to say that one doesn’t need to use them to teach the horse to engage the haunches, move over its back and forward into the rein. It does describe correct placement of side reins and biomechanical reasons therefore, but also describes muscle engagement and the best way to do that (which is not with side reins per se).

ETA: I’m not done in my quest for understanding how this impacts the horse’s mouth, which is where this all started, but what I’ve found so far talks about the body as a whole. I’m still searching and looking for more answers!

[Scribbler]

I’m very familiar with Deb Bennett’s work :). Other sites you might find inteteresting are Hoovesblog.com, which uses and develops her ideas, and the blog Sustainable Dressage. Both blogs seem to be dormant now, but still accessible. About the mouth: I would say that when we talk about “mouth” we are really talking about neck, shoulders, body, posture. A horse that leans into the bit or pulls, or won’t stop easily, can be retrained to be light. It isn’t that his mouth is “hard” or calloused, but that he has been trained to a certain relationship with the bit and how to carry himself. I think that this is why you don’t see a lot of technical discussion on the mouth per se.

[belgianWBLuver]

Frankly, understanding that the horse needs to develop over much time his posterior and use this part of his body to propel himself fwd and into the bit, and that this action creates a circle of energy aka schwung - is all the biomechanics I need to understand.

Why and how to use aides such as side reins and in hand work such as the flexions combined with the “moving” in hand work and correct ridden work in an accordion-like manner creates schwung.

[Scribbler]

I was thinking about the mouth during my last trail ride. Horse has always been very light, and our main task over the past several years has been teaching her to seek the bit, and go long and low with an open poll, stretching her topline. So she is a horse that just doesn’t have pulling, rooting, or hanging on the reins in her vocabulary. She would love to be a Western horse ridden from neck rein and seat aids, or voice command, with nothing ever touching her mouth.

Nevertheless, on the trails in the summer, she is capable of diving for tasty grass and leaves, and once she gets going on a dive, she is pretty much impossible to stop: she can just about wrench your arms out of their sockets. This from a horse that has an extremely light mouth in every other situation.

I can however completely keep her from diving for grass if I ride her with a bit of flexion both lateral and longitudinal in the poll. If I ride her shoulder-in, shoulder-fore, or even just with a little lateral flexion (what the French call flechi droit, bent but going straight), with her jaw mobiized, she simply cannot dive and get away from me. She will move past the tastiest tall grass waving at nose level without making a move. This is not a tight grip on the reins on my part. I am not holding her up there. She is as light as when we do these exercises in the ring. I think that what’s happening is that, in these “school” positions, she gives me her jaw and poll. In order to dive for grass, she needs to clench her jaw and neck, and brace against me.

So our trail rides are long and low, or loose rein, where there’s nothing much to eat, and shoulder-in past the tasty stuff.

Anyways, this has re-inforced my thoughts of a few days ago, that when we say “mouth” we are really talking about neck and jaw, not the actual bars and lips, in most cases. As far as the connection to the original question about how side-reins affect this, my preference would be to teach response to the reins from the saddle, with a rider with very good tact, feel and release, so the horse learned to follow a rider’s following rein. I would worry that the fixed aspect of the side reins would encourage leaning into the bit. Of course, as I also said earlier, I have never seen side-reins used by anyone who knew what they were doing.

[CHT]

OP, if you are looking for a training device that mimics rider contact a bit more, consider a chambon or de-guogue. They operate more on the lips of the mouth rather than the bars.

[LarkspurCO]

Even though they both act upon the horse’s mouth, I do not think of side reins as analogous to the rider’s hand. Side reins cannot mimic the rider’s hand and contact under saddle. They’re there to “contain” the horse and encourage a correct posture that will enable the horse to move in a manner to help him develop strength and balance without the rider’s interference. They help the horse to be round but obviously side reins cannot force the horse to be round.

Contact is much more than reins. In riding, contact involves your whole body – legs, seat, core, voice and even breath. In longeing, the contact can be anything from a light tug on the longe line to the raising of an eyebrow or the raising of a whip. It’s all about communicating with the horse. Effective longeing requires just as much training and skill as riding.

To me, it doesn’t matter where and how the bit is sitting in the horse’s mouth, as long as the horse is answering the cues, developing and progressing toward the intended goal.