Spinoff: "Breed the best; ride the rest"

[Bayhawk]

Sometimes a mare is just a flat out athlete and can jump the proverbial barn no matter her flaws. Alot of times they have the negative traits as Barbara describes and this should not be reproduced. There is usually a very good reason these mares were put into sport rather than being bred.

Stallion approvals are a good example of what we are trying to say. They all can jump…some jump with unbelievable quality sometimes and still not be approved due to their negative traits in other areas.

At the end of the day…too many folks think a mare must be bred if she simply jumped Grand Prix. This is usually not productive.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Ticker;7510841]
ET is a game changer I do agree. But, I think the recipe is more like keep the fillies sell the colts since not too many US breeders can promote a stallion with the general lack of support in that area. There are, of course, exceptions.

Many riders are getting very good colts/geldings to ride just because there is a lack of resources to develop some of these colts. Some breeders are selling very very good fillies just because that’s what the foal fairy brings the most of.
I just have to think, on average, it’s more a matter of economics for the breeder as to what they keep and breed and what they have to sell.[/QUOTE]

ET is not a game changer for most breeders in Europe. The wealthy breeders will spend their money on this but most breeders will breed their best mares and send the rest to sport just like they always have.

[showjumpers66]

But the mare in question does not have a good jump. She managed to get the job done in spite of her bad jump. That is my point. There are many jumpers that get the job done, but not in a fashion that we should want to reproduce. Just because she competed at 1.50 meters does not include her in with the “best jumpers”.

[HorseKrazy]

Lesser quality is still going to be lesser quality even if it can jump the moon-as far as breeding goes. You have to look at the whole package in front of you to determine if it is breeding quality or not. I wouldn’t look at a mare differently for having had a performance career if she checked all my other boxes.

As far as the horse in the example given, no I would not try and breed her. I am looking for more than just the ability to get the job done.

[ThistleDewDressage]

I think that if the horse is the best its the best regsrdless of whether it has a sport career or not. If she doesn’t have the qualities such as conformation, temperment, or movement she shouldnt be bred. If she has all those qualities and was in sport then bully for her. Some people sell and didnt realise what they had till it matured, some people need the money or room. Things happen, we should all strive to breed the best, I have a mare I’m very proud of who did her approvals last year and I intend to keep her as my riding horse assuming she recovers from her injury and breed her via ET. She is my only breeding quality horse, she is also my best chance to bring along a talented riding horse. Every breeder wants to produce marketable athletic foals that are going to go on to great careers. Some do it by keeping the promising fillies they have, others have to make sacrifices to pay bills or change their available bloodlines. This doesn’t make a nice mare less nice because she had a career, nor does it make a career broodmare the best out there. We should all be aware of what our goals are and conrinue to improve our programs however that comes about.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=showjumpers66;7511846]
But the mare in question does not have a good jump. She managed to get the job done in spite of her bad jump. That is my point. There are many jumpers that get the job done, but not in a fashion that we should want to reproduce. Just because she competed at 1.50 meters does not include her in with the “best jumpers”.[/QUOTE]

I have never seen the mare. But she obviously has characteristic that make it possible to do a 1.5m course the “hard way”. So if her foals were improved, they may inherit her power or what ever it is that carries her. I don’t know as this is hypothetical on my end. But what if she produced herself? A imperfect horse that can jump a 1.5m course? What percent of horses are that capable? If she was a 1.3m horse I would not be as interested or even 1.4m but that seems to be a big step up to 1.5m.
Consider all the mares bred in NA for jumping and the odds of one of them producing a competitive 1.5m or better horse. Most breeding’s are not even shooting for that level. How many people breed hunters and use dressage lines or jumpers and neither the parents or grandparents have done above a 1.4m course.
So yes, a mare from a good family and her talent is indicative of that family, I think deserves a chance. What if her issue are the result of an injury or poor training (of course you would know if this is reasonable and I can’t). There are some seriously stiff jumpers out there because of training.

But it does beg the question. Do we breed for attributes that we “think” a jumper should have or what a jumper does have? Is there a disconnect and that is why we tend to think of many successful horses as freaks?
Many horse that shine at lower levels with great form do not have the scope. Of course there are more lower level riders so that is fine for sales. As one poster pointed out the Zang, breeders have taken a totally different approach with a certain degree of success. I believe the Irish (correct me if I am wrong) also used performance to develp their talented horses. I am glad there are other breeding philosophies to maintain other characteristics and overall health but it is interesting.

Mare is long backed, short in leg, old fashioned, heavy bodied, neck is set too deep and low

Carriage horse type trot with a lot of action but no swing or elasticity to her gaits, stiff and hollow in her back, canter is stilted and short strided, does not have a natural / easy lead change

Jump is deer-like with neck upright, back hollow, and legs are not tight or quick

Rideability on course looks difficult with a lot of fussiness in the bridle, drives like a Mac truck as she is very heavy on her forehand

[vandenbrink]

My interpretation of this is that we MUST breed the best, not what is left over and can’t sell. As breeders we have to be committed to our breeding goals and hold on to these really good fillies. That is difficult when cash flow is tight but it is the key to long term success for your breeding business. I like they idea of proving these girls in sport first, but that doesn’t pencil out for most of us. If we wait and buy something when she is ready to retire, our bloodlines are not as fashionable and fertility is significantly reduced…PLUS the successful mares out of the really good mare-lines are most likely not available.

[showjumpers66]

vandenbrink, you are absolutely correct.

[omare]

I agree that ET is not likely to dominate–it is expensive and uncertain, but you do wonder whether the economics of breeding compared to the economics of the price for the top prospects and GP horses will result in more mares going into sport that would have otherwise been kept in the herd.

And I do think the racehorse studies reflects soundness. As one writer states: “One of the other important reasons why high quality race fillies have a higher potential for producing significantly more winners, high earners and stakes performers, is that they have stood the test of management and/or mismanagement, breaking, training and racing at the highest level of competition, and have remained sound enough to do so.” http://www.drpedigree.com/articles.htm Thie correlatlion is that the GP sports mare has demonstrated that she too expresses the desired inheritable trait and she has also demonstrated that she is functionally sound enough to compete at that top level.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=omare;7512377]
I agree that ET is not likely to dominate–it is expensive and uncertain, but you do wonder whether the economics of breeding compared to the economics of the price for the top prospects and GP horses will result in more mares going into sport that would have otherwise been kept in the herd.

And I do think the racehorse studies reflects soundness. As one writer states: “One of the other important reasons why high quality race fillies have a higher potential for producing significantly more winners, high earners and stakes performers, is that they have stood the test of management and/or mismanagement, breaking, training and racing at the highest level of competition, and have remained sound enough to do so.” http://www.drpedigree.com/articles.htm Thie correlatlion is that the GP sports mare has demonstrated that she too expresses the desired inheritable trait and she has also demonstrated that she is functionally sound enough to compete at that top level.[/QUOTE]

Omare , you can paste all the links you like but you will never get me to agree. TB’s are bred for speed and no attention is paid to the breeding for long term soundness. We know this is a fact for most breeders in the industry. It’s a shame but it’s a fact.

[Bachus]

ET is not going to dominate but it is much more common then 20 years ago. Even in Holstein people start to think more about when we have 5 mares we breed maybe with the two best ones and try to use (that does not always work) the other mares as recipient mares. Embryo transfer is not always a money thing, it will cost you more to cover with Diamant de Semily. I know several stables that are breeding with retired GP mares from excellent motherlines and who have bought offspring from retired GP mares. From Fine Kiss are coming some really interesting young horses and these mares are having a correct conformation and everything. I really don’t know why some write so negative about retired GP mares. If they are having everything in the right package? I would not breed with a broodmare with all kind of conformation faults and nasty character even if she would come from a perfect motherline or if she was a GP jumpinghorse. The quality should be the same. I would breed for sport and not for the perfect broodmare, my ultimate dream would be to breed an Olympic jumping mare and that she would produce GP jumping horses.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7512507]
ET is not going to dominate but it is much more common then 20 years ago. Even in Holstein people start to think more about when we have 5 mares we breed maybe with the two best ones and try to use (that does not always work) the other mares as recipient mares. Embryo transfer is not always a money thing, it will cost you more to cover with Diamant de Semily. I know several stables that are breeding with retired GP mares from excellent motherlines and who have bought offspring from retired GP mares. From Fine Kiss are coming some really interesting young horses and these mares are having a correct conformation and everything. I really don’t know why some write so negative about retired GP mares. If they are having everything in the right package? I would not breed with a broodmare with all kind of conformation faults and nasty character even if she would come from a perfect motherline or if she was a GP jumpinghorse. The quality should be the same. I would breed for sport and not for the perfect broodmare, my ultimate dream would be to breed an Olympic jumping mare and that she would produce GP jumping horses.[/QUOTE]

Adrianna , alot of the GP mares are not correct and not attractive for breeding. It’s that simple.

Maybe one day when you finally own your first mare and finally breed your first foal , then you might then understand.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7512507]
ET is not going to dominate but it is much more common then 20 years ago. Even in Holstein people start to think more about when we have 5 mares we breed maybe with the two best ones and try to use (that does not always work) the other mares as recipient mares. Embryo transfer is not always a money thing, it will cost you more to cover with Diamant de Semily. I know several stables that are breeding with retired GP mares from excellent motherlines and who have bought offspring from retired GP mares. From Fine Kiss are coming some really interesting young horses and these mares are having a correct conformation and everything. I really don’t know why some write so negative about retired GP mares. If they are having everything in the right package? I would not breed with a broodmare with all kind of conformation faults and nasty character even if she would come from a perfect motherline or if she was a GP jumpinghorse. The quality should be the same. I would breed for sport and not for the perfect broodmare, my ultimate dream would be to breed an Olympic jumping mare and that she would produce GP jumping horses.[/QUOTE]

Adrianna , alot of the GP mares are not correct and not attractive for breeding. It’s that simple.

Maybe one day when you finally own your first mare and finally breed your first foal , then you might have a better understanding once you have actually done it…

[HorseKrazy]

Ok, another question. For those that breed the best sell/ride the rest, how can you predict rideability, character, and trainability in the mare you are breeding if she has never been through the tests and pressures of sport training? Are you relying on the siblings and and relatives of the mare to make your judgements?

[Bayhawk]

@HorseKrazy;7512762

Ok, another question. For those that breed the best sell/ride the rest, how can you predict rideability, character, and trainability in the mare you are breeding if she has never been through the tests and pressures of sport training? Are you relying on the siblings and and relatives of the mare to make your judgements?

The mares test when they are 3 and you can gain knowledge of their jumping skills , rideability ,character etc. Family history as well. Siblings etc.

Once you have an established motherline you breed with , you can tell what you have just by knowing the family. With my motherline here…I pretty much know what I’m getting every year barring sex and color.

[fannie_mae]

@horsekrazy:
well, i am doing it currently, and there is a way.
but it takes time, well thought of management and a lot of effort, work and money.
no doubt.
after ten years of breeding and some 30 foals on the ground the “best horse i ever bred” finally is starting her sport carreer. (and yes, it does take some ten years of breeding history or more… i still consider myself on the short side of time span…)

and yes, i do rely on relatives and damline as i know her damline inside out, raised and competed her mother myself in all three disciplines (dressage, jumping a n d eventing succesfully) own a full sister to her mother and rode various siblings myself.
there IS a very valid history of family profile to teach me pro’s and con’s and provide me with necessary and suitable background about no-no’s and go-go’s re breeding this mare family.

the filly in question (by belissimo fidermark) is turning five now and i mounted and trained her myself under saddle age 3, breeding her at the same time. while under saddle age three she proved her saddle quality in first instance (confirmed everything i had seen in her from foal age maturing to age three). she blew me away when riding her myself. she felt like the “perfect dressage horse” has to make you feel - the complete package of saddle feeling:
natural cadence, natural self carriage, three rock solid gaites and the necessary “go”.
i am an amateur rider only and this is the most you can expect.
at the same time, it is the most a breeder can expect at that age, too.
and i know that such package of all-in-all-inclusive is a very rare package of prove already.

she had her first foal age 4 and it turned out to be the foal champion of the hannoverian foals in westfalia. incredible proof of breed but doesn’t mean anything with respect to future riding horse prospects (note: a good foal is not necessarily a good riding horse) but after all:
she has proven her brood mare qualities as much as can be at that age.
after weaning i have taken her back under saddle myself and she has now moved to professional training at johann hinnemann’s barn, supposed to be a sport horse for the coming 2, 3 years in order to prove her valid status as a brood mare (performance horse, that is) and i can only hope she will confirm her so far proven under saddle qualities in the future, too.
i will than take her back as a broodmare of proven status.

first impressions in training simply blew me away (again) and i can only hope she does accordingly at shows.
pictures at 4 and 8 weeks in training:
http://www.hippologi.com/Biscaya.htm#1.3.2014
(scroll further down.
for her champion foal by don frederic scroll up.)

so apart from obviously fishing for compliments (forgive me…) and being incredibly proud (oh yes!) this is my concept to answer horsekrazy’s question:
“… how can you predict rideability, character, and trainability in the mare you are breeding”:

1. only keep the best fillies and sell the rest
2. mount and ride age 3 in order to confirm under saddle qualities and
3. breed at the same time to have first proof (or disproof) of breeding quality a.s.a.p.
4. turn her into professional training and sport immediately after the first foal
5. pray and hope for best proof. yet again…

no other way of doing it.
explicitly NO mare show (in hand shows are uesless, anyway) and NO MPT.
MPT age three is a very questionable thing to do when the indivual horse is a late bloomer. i have done it before with another filly age 3 and would never do it again. i’ld rather breed&keep them further until age 5. by that time they have physically matured and i KNOW they can cope with any burden without doing harm to them.

however:
at her foal’s inspection (age four for the dam) the belissimo filly was awarded four times an “8” as a broodmare with the hanoverian stood book. of course, this was the icing on the cake to me at that time and theoretically provided premium mare status. however, it doesn’t tell you anything about riding horse and under saddle quality at all.
forget about in hand show titles.
the proof is under saddle and only under saddle.

i have been following this concept for the last few years with all my self bred fillies and even though i know it is time consuming and expensive i reckon it is the only way of complementary proof of both, breeding and sport quality at the same time a.s.a.p.

i have kept a don schufro filly o/o her mother’s full sister (her first foal turned out to be a licensed stallion bought by paul schockemöhle) and this don schufro filly is turning 3 this year. http://www.hippologi.com/Deauville.htm#2012 (scroll up for further pics at foal age)

i have already bred her these days and will take her to my muenster barn for mounting and training next month hoping she proves under saddle what i saw in her at foal age.
if she does i plan to take her to hinnemann age 5 as i did with the other filly.
if she doesn’t there are two options:

1. her foal next year will be convincing enough to still justify further efforts keeping and developing her further under saddle d e s p i t e first not-so-convincing impressions under saddle
2. her foal does not convince me to the better, either, and both will be offered for sale consequently.

note:
the key point in “breed the best, ride the rest” is CULLING consequently at the right time and the necessary gutts to do so.
everything else is economic suicide.
don’t get mislead by barn blindness.
it is the hardest part of all, i’ld say and takes the most balls to do so.
consequence and capability to make a decision and go for it.

[fannie_mae]

@horsekrazy:
well, i am doing it currently, and there is a way.
but it takes time, well thought if management and a lot of effort, work and money. no doubt.
after ten years of breeding and some 30 foals on the ground the “best horse i ever bred” finally is starting her sport carreer. (and yes, it does take some ten years of breeding history or more… i still consider myself on the short side of time span…)

and yes, i do rely on relatives and damline as i know her damline inside out, raised and competed her mother myself in all three disciplines (dressage, jumping a n d eventing succesfully) own a full sister to her mother and rode various siblings myself.
there IS a very valid history of family profile to teach me pro’s and con’s and provide me with necessary and suitable background about no-no’s and go-go’s re breeding this mare family.

the filly in question (by belissimo fidermark) is turning five now and i mounted and trained her myself under saddle age 3, breeding her at the same time. while under saddle age three she proved her saddle quality in first instance (confirmed everything i had seen in her from foal age maturing to age three). she blew me away when riding her myself. she felt like the “perfec dressage horse” has to make you feel - the complete package of saddle feeling:
natural cadence, natural self carriage, three rock solid gaites and the necessary “go”.
i am an amateur rider only and this is the most you can expect.
at the same time, it is the most a breeder can expect that age, too.
and i know that such package of all-in-all-inclusive is a very rare package of prove already.

she had her first foal age 4 and it turned out to be the foal champion of the hannoverian foals in westfalia. incredible proof of breed but doesn’t mean anything with respect to riding horse prospects (a good foal is not necessarily a good riding horse) but after all:
she has proven her brood mare qualities as much as can be at that age.
after weaning i have taken her back under saddle and she has now moved to professional training at johann hinnemann’s barn, supposed to be a sport horse for the coming 2, 3 years in order to prove her valid status as a brood mare (performance horse, that is) and i can only hope she will confirm her so far proven under saddle qualities in the future, too.
i will than take her back as a broodmare of proven status.

first impressions in training simply blew me away (again) and i can only hope she does accordingly at shows.
pictures at 4 and 8 weeks in training:
http://www.hippologi.com/Biscaya.htm#1.3.2014
(scroll further down.
for her champion foal by don frederic scroll up.)

so apart from obviously fishing for compliments (forgive me…) and being incredibly proud (oh yes!) this is my concept to answer horsekrazy’s question:
“… how can you predict rideability, character, and trainability in the mare you are breeding”:

1. only keep the best fillies and sell the rest
2. mount and ride age 3 in order to confirm under saddle qualities and
3. breed at the same time to have first proof (or disproof) of breeding quality a.s.a.p.
4. turn her into professional training and sport immediately after the first foal
5. pray and hope for best proof. yet again…

no other way of doing it.

i have been following this concept for the last few years and even though i know it is time consuming and expensive i reckon it is the only way of complementary proof of both, breeding and sport quality at the same time a.s.a.p.

i have kept a don schufro filly o/o her mother’s full sister (her first foal turned out to be a licensed stallion bought by paul schockemöhle) and this don schufro filly is turning 3 this year. http://www.hippologi.com/Deauville.htm#2012 (scroll up for further pics at foal age)

i have already bred her these days and will take her to my muenster barn for mounting and training next month hoping she proves under saddle what i saw in her at foal age.
if she does i plan to take her to hinnemann age 5 as i did with the other filly.
if she doesn’t there are two options:

1. her foal next year will be convincing enough to still justify further efforts keeping and developing her further under saddle d e s p i t e first not-so-convincing impressions under saddle
2. her foal does not convince me to the better and both will be offered for sale.

note:
the key point in “breed the best, ride the rest” is CULLING at the rigth time and the necessary gutts to do so.
don’t get mislead by barn blindness.
it is the hardest part of all, i’ld say and takes the most balls to do so.
consequence and capability to make a decision and go for it.

[fannie_mae]

just figured, there are engl pages to the belissimo and the donschfuro as well (not so detailed and not completely updated, but it serves the matter):
http://www.hippologi.com/bravoengl.htm
http://www.hippologi.com/Deauvilleengl.htm

[Ticker]

Ahhh…so now, when we discuss importing those fabulous horses from Europe we are really getting the cast-offs from the ‘sell the rest’ programs?

[fannie_mae]

making me laugh
no.
not really.
i have never sold a horse to the US, if that is what your question is aiming at.
but i have failed in both, regard and disregard of culled or not-culled fillies.
one was sold for good reason (i thought) and has now turned into the most succesful sport horse i have bred so far - under a junior rider, that is.
incredible.
and she is making me proud every time her junior rider is filling my mail box with latest stories of love&success.
most fulfilling prove of disregard, i’ld say.

another one i have kept and invested a lot of money, time and effort dispite gutt feeling of doing so, still hoping for the best. lacking the necessary balls of culling at the right time.
finally i gave her away for free simply to cut expenses.
hard way of learning, i’ld say.
the proof is yet to come if i was right or wrong.
horse breeding and succesful breeding is a v e r y time consuming effort and you never know what’s in the cards.
but you have to make your decision at some time and my experience is:
better early than late.
decide u p o n the pro’s and not d e s p i t e the con’s.
does that make sense?