[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7511817]
ET is not a game changer for most breeders in Europe. The wealthy breeders will spend their money on this but most breeders will breed their best mares and send the rest to sport just like they always have.[/QUOTE]
Fannie Mai :
Actually, I was thinking in terms of Bayhawks statement that ‘most breeders sell the rest’ …and I assume it was ‘in Europe’ that we were discussing, not you in particular. However, I did import a mare from Europe and I’m quite sure she was a ‘cast-off’…she was…gasp…grey. Not a color anyone breeds on purpose for dressage.
After 30 years of breeding warmbloods in the US I have come to the conclusion that unless you get your super talented youngster into the right hands you will never know what you’re really producing. It’s one thing to start a 3-year old and find him/her willing, talented and trainable… another for that horse to win the big competitions.
As far as “breed the best, ride the rest” is concerned, I happen to think that the two are not mutually exclusive! A good horse is a good horse is a good horse… Bloodlines will tell you what’s behind a horse’s talent and then it is up to the rider to develop that.
And yes, I’ve have had a mare compete successfully and then produce top notch foals.
Nothing is ever that black and white…
There is something I have learned in reading this thread and it is this: breeding GP dressage horses is NOT similar to breeding GP jumpers! When I see the example stated by Showjumper66 I realize that.
For a horse to make it to GP level dressage and become successful at it they have to have all of the following traits:
Inherent soundness
Sensitivity combined with ability to take intense mental and physical pressure (not an easy trait to breed for!)
excellent gaits: uphill, elastic and supple
Natural ability to collect
Those are absolute musts. If any of those parts are missing, horse simply is not going to be a successful at the GP level. I have never seen a good GP horse that has terrible conformation, bad movement, horrible rideability etc etc. They can’t. So my point is that when a horse has been successful at GP there is no guessing at the quality of the horse. The success speaks for the quality.
Can the same be said about a small tour horse? No. I would say any horse can be developed to PSG level with the right training if the mind is good enough and the horse stays sound enough. Not to say it is a small accomplishment but it is not a test in the same way the GP is. Parts of the above mentioned list can be missing and a horse can still have some success at the small tour level.
So I can totally see where Showjumper 66 is coming from. If a mare were to have a tonne of faults but had really good training and made it to the small tour level then I can see a hesitation to breed such a mare as such a mare is obviously more of a product of her training than anything else.
But a GP dressage horse is something entirely different, like I said. A GP dressage horse is automatically a horse that embodies all of the traits that a dressage breeder should strive to reproduce. That is not to say that none of them have faults but it is to say that the overall quality speaks far more than would an individual fault that horse may have.
None of this has anything to do with mare family or quality of pedigree. That is just another aspect of a mare’s breeding quality. But if we are talking about breeding for GP horses probably the best thing a dressage breeder could do would be to get a hold of a mare that has been really successful at the GP level (hopefully with a good motherline).
For me, I am much like Fannie mae. That model makes sense to me too. My best mares are in the sport because I am an avid dressage rider and my partner is a pro and we want to ride the horses we have bred. So we will do ET with them and hopefully have the best of both worlds. Riding your own horses and putting your horses in sport really helps when it comes time to breed them. It also keeps you honest. If you have to ride and develop your own horses you know damn well not to overlook things such a rideability because you are going to have to deal with the result! Yes, knowing the family helps but they are still all individuals and so knowing their qualities under saddle helps a lot.
ps…if a breeder cannot afford an ET he certainly cannot afford to miss out on the sale of a high quality sport prospect from his program. I imagine that is why many mares end up in the sport …makes more sense than the idea that they were sold because they were not quality enough to be bred. But again, breeding jumpers is clearly a much different ball game than breeding dressage horses!
Fannie Mae I love your Belissimo M. Looks really super!
[QUOTE=showjumpers66;7511463]
Let me pose a what would you do scenario based on an actual mare … would you breed this mare and why?
Mare competed successfully through 1.50 meters in Europe first and then here in the US
Mare has a very nice pedigree with well known sire and dam sire who produce good sport horses
Motherline is nice solid performance line
Mare is long backed, short in leg, old fashioned, heavy bodied, neck is set too deep and low
Carriage horse type trot with a lot of action but no swing or elasticity to her gaits, stiff and hollow in her back, canter is stilted and short strided, does not have a natural / easy lead change
Jump is deer-like with neck upright, back hollow, and legs are not tight or quick
Rideability on course looks difficult with a lot of fussiness in the bridle, drives like a Mac truck as she is very heavy on her forehand[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=arlosmine;7511527]Nope. I wouldn’t. Though I would if the mare was bred the same, AND had type, temperament and ridability.
I just see the possibility of some nice mares who were good enough to breed, and somehow were ridden instead. I would think they would perform well, and if they met all the other criteria, would be a good option for breeding when they were done competing due to injury or other reasons.[/QUOTE]
Mare you describe kinda sounds like Galoubet’s mother, who was a trotter, ugggggllly… and very contankerous in front of the carriage, so they tried riding her to which they discovered she was only a little bit happier, and as a bonus she could jump. So then they decided to breed her. Galoubet was not readily accepted either at first because he showed the obvious signs of coming from a trotter heritage, but boy could he jump.
Imagine what would have happened had they just thrown her out to some field.
He is not exactly the prettiest horse on the planet or has the best conformation, but it was probably a very good thing they decided to keep him intact, especially since his lineage happens to be among the great successes on the planet.
[QUOTE=rodawn;7513439]
Mare you describe kinda sounds like Galoubet du Rouet’s mother, who was a trotter, ugggggllly… and very contankerous in front of the carriage, so they tried riding her to which they discovered she was quite a bit happier, and as a bonus she could jump. So then they decided to breed her. Galoubet du Rouet was not readily accepted either at first because he showed the obvious signs of coming from a trotter heritage, but boy could he jump.
Imagine what would have happened had they just thrown her out to some field.
He is not exactly the prettiest horse on the planet or has the best conformation, but it was probably a very good thing they decided to keep him intact, especially since his lineage happens to be among the great successes on the planet.[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to Galoubet, sire of Baloubet du Rouet? His dam is a trotter. The naming is a bit confusing.
The thing is, everyone wears rose tinted glasses when it comes to their animals, so they probably genuinely believe their mares are the best.
I have started to follow Fannie Mae’s process too. I had a few bad years and so pretty much gave up breeding, but kept my best filly who I had bred from a top motherline, from a sire known for his success as a broodmare sire.
She was a champion foal, ad I bred a lovely big filly for her by Furst Romancier who sold as a foal but who was very pleasing.
My mare is now in training and is blowing us away with her progress. If she proves to be as successful in sport as we expect, she will come to breeding in a few years
I’m not into continental WB’s so I’ll ask about this TB mare
DP = 0-8-10-10-0 (28) DI = 0.87 CD = -0.07 - 1 Starts, 0 Wins, 0 Places, 0 Shows
Would you breed her?
or her?
DP = 14-10-24-2-0 (50) DI = 2.57 CD = 0.72 - 15 Starts, 10 Wins, 3 Places, 2 Shows Career Earnings: $646,587
[QUOTE=carolprudm;7514039]
I’m not into continental WB’s so I’ll ask about this TB mare
DP = 0-8-10-10-0 (28) DI = 0.87 CD = -0.07 - 1 Starts, 0 Wins, 0 Places, 0 Shows
Would you breed her?
or her?
DP = 14-10-24-2-0 (50) DI = 2.57 CD = 0.72 - 15 Starts, 10 Wins, 3 Places, 2 Shows Career Earnings: $646,587[/QUOTE]
My first tb mare was a complete wash on the track, never even raced, but has been throwing premium foals from a well-regarded wb breeding program for the last decade.
If your goal is to breed race horses, perhaps the second mare is of more interest. For sport, it would depend which one was better conformed. And for either, I think everyone regardless of discipline would carefully examine their pedigrees.
I’m not sure using the Tb model is completely wrong.
Yes long tem soundness is not a priority in NA racing however the idea that the mare should be able to able to compete in sport is relevant. And now that people are paying huge amounts for showjumpers and dressage horses, I think it would be hard for the average breeder to not sell off a young mare with GP potential. Really, if you had a young mare that showed potential to be ridden in the big ring and a person to take her there, it would benefit your breeding program hugely to let her go.
Honestly, many mares used for jumper breeding do not have GP potential or they would have been sent. Maybe the Holsteiner breeders are intent on that philosophy enough to not send a mare with that type of potential off but that is not true of most breeders, that includes the top 3 registries of 2013 and so far of 2014. “Anything is for sale at the right price”.
The interesting idea is if a mare is at the GP level have conformational deficiencies “most of the time”, how are they competing at the top of the sport? While the “better” mares used for breeding are not actually catching the attention of people that are at the top of the sport? This is more applicable in Europe where everyone seems to be familiar with the horses around them.
4 out of the top 8 SJ are mares right now.
Not an expert on Tb pedigrees by any stretch, but, I’ve had multiple TB and TB crosses that were sound the day they died…one lived until 36, two in their twenties…still have a 25 year and a 22 year cross just starting to need some help. I think there are plenty of TB’s out there that can stay sound. Still wish we could have read the tattoo on the 36 year old, he would have made a great stallion. I would have loved to have more of his bloodlines in my breeding program. I was still competing him in dressage at 20 and winning. That was after his race track career and several years as a jumper…at least two were at GP.
No one can convince me that there aren’t great sport horse lines out there in the TB ranks.
I bred one of those TB mares that passed sound in her twenties. She was also a race stakes winner before I competed her at dressage. Her great granddaughter carries her lines along with many notable WB stallions.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7513798]
Are you referring to Galoubet, sire of Baloubet du Rouet? His dam is a trotter. The naming is a bit confusing.[/QUOTE]
O yes indeed… Galoubet! Sleep deprivation rules. The dam, Viti… was a trotter. Post edited.
Probably some of the better sport horse TB mares are more likely to be wash outs on the track. The movement is wrong. They have a big gallop, of course, but not necessarily the speed required even for the big Kentucky tracks. I was lucky (and I do count it as pure luck) to pick up such a mare and the WB judges were very enthusiastic about her. She stood 17.1Hh and the poor runner girl at the inspection had a devil of a time keeping up to her big trot and she scored 8 overall beating out some warmblood mares, so not all TB mares are alike and while the big complaint about TB mares is that this mare is an anomaly within her family, it turns out this is not always the case. She produced a super filly for me who I still have, giving that filly a powerful hindquarter and the WB stallion provided a better front quarter, and now I also have her granddaughter who also has a very correct conformation and powerful hindquarter.
I still believe that North Americans tend to use too much TB. And furthermore, too much of the WRONG TB. But if they are patient and look for the right TB who comes from a family showing similar type as the mare herself, and the WB inspection judges show enthusiasm for her, well then that is a mare to use. But most definitely not every Sally, Jane and Sue off the track is right for breeding in the WB program.
And this is even true for Anglo breeding since my family also breeds Anglos. The kind of TB you want in Anglo breeding is also similar to what should be going through the WB program. You want a sport athlete with very good conformation, who moves correctly and, well, has some talent for something - be it jumping or dressage - and ultimately who can pass on said characteristics without reverting to some dismal mutt from the dark ages.
These mares are very hard to find. You literally pass by hundreds. And I do mean HUNDREDS of TB mares to find just the ONE who fits perfectly, and perhaps a number more who are considered adequate. But who wants to breed adequate when we should be breeding the ones who fit perfectly to the program and breeding goals. I searched 10 years before I found her. And then since, I’ve been looking for 7 years to find another. Found many nice TB mares, but none suitable for my program, in my opinion. And you do have to be picky, because a mare only has a limited number of foals she can produce in a lifetime so she has to be good at it and she has to fit your criteria.
(Just to clarify I am not suggesting using the xx mare. FWIW I do not think any warmblood would stand up to what a race horse goes through)
[QUOTE=omare;7514529]
(Just to clarify I am not suggesting using the xx mare. FWIW I do not think any warmblood would stand up to what a race horse goes through)[/QUOTE]
I call BS on this statement.
We have WB horses in dressage , showjumping and eventing that are still sound and competing at 18 years of age. It’s a big deal if a TB retires sound at the age of 5.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7514538]
I call BS on this statement.
We have WB horses in dressage , showjumping and eventing that are still sound and competing at 18 years of age. It’s a big deal if a TB retires sound at the age of 5.[/QUOTE]
I agree in part to both of the previous statements, but OTTBs are generally started under a rider at 18 months, so in my opinion they are set up to break down.
We see the same thing, I’d argue most prevalent in dressage (it’s my chosen discipline so don’t think I’m just slagging), with young warmbloods rushed up the levels, who break down too soon.
I’d say a well-conformed horse with appropriate training will stay sound longer, regardless of breed. but not regardless of discipline, cause seriously, racing will break everything down eventually.
I am taking into consideration the forces a race horse leg experiences when racing or working or breaking from the gate (pounds of force- on each leg- during some point of every stride- in every race/workout) It is real. I do not think as a breed (unraced) thoroughbreds have problems with soundness being show horses. Thoroughbreds show horses certainly do not retire by 5.
If a warmblood walked in a racehorses shoes (which of course they cant) the bio-mechanics would act the same or worse as they are heavier, but they cannot go 40 mph. Speed kills.
One of my best friends bought a 9 year old just retired from the track TB way back in the late 70s. He had raced 113 times and retired sound. The first few years I watched them, he spent a lot of time way above the ground. But my friend was as determined as he was a little fried. They made dressage scores that ranged from 33% at training level to 70% at Prix St George. They also won a few 3 day events - the horse could jump, was agile and fast. He died at about 25 years of age. He was an athlete, tough as nails and had just about perfect legs which helped him last.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7514551]
I agree in part to both of the previous statements, but OTTBs are generally started under a rider at 18 months, so in my opinion they are set up to break down.
We see the same thing, I’d argue most prevalent in dressage (it’s my chosen discipline so don’t think I’m just slagging), with young warmbloods rushed up the levels, who break down too soon.
I’d say a well-conformed horse with appropriate training will stay sound longer, regardless of breed. but not regardless of discipline, cause seriously, racing will break everything down eventually.[/QUOTE]
If they chose to…which most breeders don’t , they could breed better limbs under these horses and make them sounder. They don’t because they just don’t give a damn. I think racing 2 yr olds ought to be outlawed.