[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7514798} I think racing 2 yr olds ought to be outlawed.[/QUOTE]
AMEN!!!
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7514798]
I think racing 2 yr olds ought to be outlawed.[/QUOTE]
AMEN!!
Beezie Madden wins with the MARE Coral Reef Via Volo (by Heartbreaker) the American invitational, plus the daughter of this mare Vanilla (by Nabab de Rêve) is competing aswell at 1.60m.
I guess these are all Belgian exceptions that don’t fit in the standard way of thinking from some breeders here.
In the current top 10 from the WBFSH Jumping Ranking are 5 mares.
We were fortunate to meet Via Volo and Vanilla this past March in FL at the Madden’s. They are both very nice mares, but even John will tell you they are not conformationally perfect. He is very concise in his wants and opinions, and had the mare not been out of Via Volo , Vanilla is not the type of horse they typically look for. I think they said they have bred one of the mares to a client owned stallion, Ublesco. (Who John also mentioned is not correct in the foreleg conformation) I can’t recall if the foal is already born or in utero.
[QUOTE=Bachus;7515112]
Beezie Madden wins with the MARE Coral Reef Via Volo (by Heartbreaker) the American invitational, plus the daughter of this mare Vanilla (by Nabab de Rêve) is competing aswell at 1.60m.
I guess these are all Belgian exceptions that don’t fit in the standard way of thinking from some breeders here.
In the current top 10 from the WBFSH Jumping Ranking are 5 mares.[/QUOTE]
“MOST” Adrainna…“MOST” GP mares are not breeding quality ,not all. Nobody said all. I have seen Beezies mare several times in person and she is one that appears good enough to breed with.
Both mares have their issues but not as much as most.
Maybe if you were to visit with the Madden’s like Tracy has above , you may learn a little more than just reading competition results.
“Breed the best, Ride the rest” is an idiotic statement to make…sorry…simply because it is so open to interpretation. What is the best? Says who? A judge in 15 minutes? A trainer after a few rides? The best at what? Even after you ride a horse for 2 weeks or a month or a year, you might not know what you have if you don’t keep an open mind…
Why be so closed minded? Puzzles me…
Siegi b.'s reply was the best: “Nothing is so black and white”.
Breeding is an art of balance and proper match making, between the analysis and knowledge of the pedigree, the performance, the type, the temperament, the environment, the physical geography and then add a big touch of unexplained science (mystery of genetics).
Let’s not forget that once you have a foal on the ground, every hour of its life, no matter how it is bred and how it came out, will then be the most decisive factor of its success in the ring.
If I were to follow a guideline, I would want to say:
- Breed the best (best match of mare and sire)
- Manage and train the best (best program for each individual horse)
- Ride the best (best match rider/horse for best results)
Most of all, as a breeder, be knowledgeable on all 3 points if you want to be successful. The same goes for trainers and riders. It is a big issue here in the US, and is felt too often on these boards and in real life. One sided, tunnel vision approach…rarely works well.
[QUOTE=Quixotic;7515428]
“Breed the best, Ride the rest” is an idiotic statement to make…sorry…simply because it is so open to interpretation. What is the best? Says who? A judge in 15 minutes? A trainer after a few rides? The best at what? Even after you ride a horse for 2 weeks or a month or a year, you might not know what you have if you don’t keep an open mind…
Why be so closed minded? Puzzles me…
Siegi b.'s reply was the best: “Nothing is so black and white”.
Breeding is an art of balance and proper match making, between the analysis and knowledge of the pedigree, the performance, the type, the temperament, the environment, the physical geography and then add a big touch of unexplained science (mystery of genetics).
Let’s not forget that once you have a foal on the ground, every hour of its life, no matter how it is bred and how it came out, will then be the most decisive factor of its success in the ring.
If I were to follow a guideline, I would want to say:
- Breed the best (best match of mare and sire)
- Manage and train the best (best program for each individual horse)
- Ride the best (best match rider/horse for best results)
Most of all, as a breeder, be knowledgeable on all 3 points if you want to be successful. The same goes for trainers and riders. It is a big issue here in the US, and is felt too often on these boards and in real life. One sided, tunnel vision approach…rarely works well.[/QUOTE]
“Idiotic” ? Wow…you just called some of the greatest breeders and horseman in the world , idiots. Congrats !
I would bet money that most accomplished breeders and horseman would agree with my post.
I guess, “Inaccurate” or “Incomplete” would have been a better choice of word.
I did not have the opportunity to visit the Maddens’ this year with the KWPN Annual Meeting attendees as Tracey did but Monica was able to attend. From what Monica has said, John does not pay attention to pedigree (to such an extent that Meghan de Geray had to remind him of the pedigrees of some of his horses in competition) but has a certain type that he seeks. He gives great value to what might best be termed “heart”. My experience in the world of competition tells me that this is an approach widely held in the US.
However, the American pro is gradually becoming more conversant with bloodlines and characteristics…the learning curve has been slow, but is steady.
[QUOTE=Quixotic;7515545]
I would bet money that most accomplished breeders and horseman would agree with my post.
I guess, “Inaccurate” or “Incomplete” would have been a better choice of word.[/QUOTE]
And you would lose your ass just based off this one fun fact. If breed the best and ride the rest weren’t in play , we wouldn’t have these incredible motherlines that have been cultivated over the last 75 years that are ULTIMATELY responsible for these top GP mares today.
Many of the top motherlines of todays top sporthorses don’t have a single mare that competed in the last 5,6 , 7 generations.
You just made my point.
In order to know if a dam or sire dam line is a good one, some of the progeny or siblings need to prove it by competing and performing with some degree of success.
We breed athletes that ultimately have to perform are we not?
Case is closed as far as I am concerned.
This was not something I understood fully until I started seeing the results first hand between visiting some of the best breeding farms in Europe as well as here at home with our own mares. We went mare shopping in Germany this past year and were very disappointed by what we were shown. These were nice mares with great pedigrees, but they had each had 1 or 2 foals and were being culled based on their production or some other short coming. Most of them will go into sport as they were all 4 to 6 years old and they have the most value in sport. The quality of these culls depend on the overall quality of the herd. From the exceptional breeders, the culls are still nicer than most breeders best mares. 10 years ago, we would have been thrilled with seeing these mares, but our standards are higher now.
Our best producing mares were purchased young and have been career broodmares. We have had a couple of very nice retired sport mares in the herd that have produced well for us, but both had reproductive issues due to their age and having had an open uterus for so long. We have kept a filly from each and both are exceptional.
I am not saying that you can’t find breeding quality mares in sport, just saying that the majority of the best mares have been retained by the breeders or someone associated with the breeder. The breeder may put the mare into sport for a bit first or she may be a career broodmare from the get go. Once a breeder has a group of special mares, these mares don’t go anywhere unless the mare is having reproductive issues, the breeder is changing their breeding path/goals, or the breeder is downsizing or having financial issues.
Quixotic, I object. :winkgrin:
This is what you get when you practice “Bred The Best. Ride The Rest.”
thank you showjumper66
…and congrats! 
[QUOTE=Quixotic;7515934]
You just made my point.
In order to know if a dam or sire dam line is a good one, some of the progeny or siblings need to prove it by competing and performing with some degree of success.
We breed athletes that ultimately have to perform are we not?
Case is closed as far as I am concerned.[/QUOTE]
No , I didn’t make your point ,I made mine and so did Showjumpers. There are no performance mares in the line of Casall and there are no performance mares in the line of Validation.
They bred the best and rode the rest.
You’re welcome and thank you
[QUOTE=Quixotic;7516237]
thank you showjumper66
…and congrats! ;-)[/QUOTE]
Mares really have a limited number of offspring they can contribute to the genetic pool. So if you have a super mare with the genetic background, conformation, quality and type would you not want to get as many offspring with her qualities into the population? If you are breeding to advance the breed you should. Putting one of these mares into sport - and honestly people, I am willing to bet that most of these mares would have been very successful in sport - limits that. And by the time they are at the upper levels you will have many fewer chances to evaluate what she passes on and by the time her foals are in sport, she will probably have fertility issues. To me it makes sense to breed the mare and evaluate her offspring. Yes there is ET but really we do not know enough about the effect of maternal DNA to say that this is a viable answer to using the best mares in sport. (Obviously in the case of an older mare who has issues carrying a foal to term it is useful.)
Finally, how can anyone think that these generational breeders do not have the ability to assess a young mare and determine what her level of ability is likely to be? That is ludicrous. These breeders produce horses for the top levels of sport consistently.
Yes there is ET but really we do not know enough about the effect of maternal DNA to say that this is a viable answer to using the best mares in sport. (Obviously in the case of an older mare who has issues carrying a foal to term it is useful.)
Finally, how can anyone think that these generational breeders do not have the ability to assess a young mare and determine what her level of ability is likely to be? That is ludicrous. These breeders produce horses for the top levels of sport consistently.
What has ET to do with DNA?
And the top of the sport has horses from all different breeding philosophies. I would not say that they are random as most of the pedigree’s reflect the quality but the top horses are somewhat random in terms of where they come from. Many breeders don’t just assess the young mare, they breed them a couple of times and assess the results. Several top stallions were not recognized till their offspring were under saddle.
If someone really could just simply assess a young horse and know how far they would go in sport…it would make most UL riders lives soo much easier. They would be very rich as they could go around and find the Hicksteads and Flexibles of the world and buy them at 3 or 4. But that isn’t how it works.
Most of the stallion test winners do not become the best stallions or go on to do well in sport and these tests are judge by some of the most knowledgeable people of their registry.
Oh sorry, mitochondrial DNA. Not enough coffee. Here’s an abstract discussing it: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/14/83 ET is certainly a viable option if you want to use a quality mare in sport but some breeders have reservations about it. Their programs, their decisions.
There will always be the hidden gem. And of course one cannot discount getting the right trainer together with the right horse. Flxible and Hickstead lucked out in that department IMO.
Hey, if you have a super young mare and you want to prove her in sport that’s great! But there are logical reasons breeders like Showjumper66 and Bayhawk follow a different method. It’s working for them. Breeding is an art and science - there can and should be room for diversity in approaches.
They used to say “Breed the best, ride the rest” about stallions as well. Until Donnerhall, Galoubet and a bunch of stallions from that generation, people thaught that a stallion could not breed and show at the same time. Things have change since and now a stallion pretty much has to show performance in the show ring to be considered as a stallion.
Breed the best is still as true as it was. And at a time, It was true that most of the best would not make it into the show ring. But I don’t believe that they are mutualy exclusive. I am not the most familliar with Holsteiner breeding but they tend to be maybe a bit more conservative than other studbooks, and it served them well. But things are changing now for the mares. Take for example Belgium , as I am more familliar with the breeding in this region, the breeders realized that by keeping all their mares, they were sitting on major money. They also realized that, in theory, if your breeding choices are well done, each generation should be better then the previous one. What they do, more and more, with ET, is to breed 2 or 3 foals of their very best mares at 2, 3, 4 and 5 YO through embryo transfer. When the mare turns 5, they usualy have its successors, and the mare is in her best years for the market. They put her into sport at 5 and 6, and get the big money.
Just to name a few, we can think of the whole “Querly chin de muze” line (Querly, Derly, Werly, Narcotique, Walnut, and many other), Valentina Van’t Heike, TaBelle Van’t sombeke, the Roosakers, the Van’t Spieveld, and others. In all those lines you will find successions of 1m60 with 1m60 daughters, grand daughters and great-grand-daughters.
Looking at the success of belgian breeding, I think people will come to expect that from the damlines and the market will evoluate in that direction.
