Spinoff: Why do we lose events, why don't more new ones emerge?

[beowulf]

@Djones

Would you really run a good.horse at poplar place if it hadn’t rained in 2 months and it’s now late august…without such manipulation of the ground? I wouldn’t.

Just so you know I’m putting my money where my mouth is, while I’ve never competed at Poplar, I have competed at southern events in late summer (I did N and T, although neither were recognized), and the ground was hard enough to be slippery. My horse was perfectly fine.

I am sure there are different considerations for different climates, but I was referring to Area I. :encouragement:

I understand why an UL rider might be selective with the footing they subject their UL horses to. Those horses are working ten times harder than a BN horse and there is a definite safety element involved with footing leading up to a big fence. That’s very different than the BN/N/T horses/riders.

The venues in my area aren’t limping along because they don’t have enough UL rider patronage - they’re limping along because they don’t have enough BN/N attendance. There is an increasing trend in my area, which is not an area known for good footing, for riders to want a H/J style tract, perfectly manicured, not too challenging, no mud or hard ground.

That’s not really what eventing is, in my perspective. No one is expecting eventers to jump a four foot fence in swampy footing, but some variation from “perfectly good turf” should be accepted. I’m not referring to dangerous footing here - just footing that is a little deviation from ideal…

[Jealoushe]

The money is in the lower levels, not the upper levels!! Unless of course you’re the FEI LOL

[Equibrit]

@Xctrygirl

See that’s not the same take away that I have. I own 47 acres and while it would be challenging this situation makes me wonder if in lieu of the crops that we have been paid for each year, whether providing another venue in the immediate Unionville area for a starter event could be useful/entertaining. (Notice I never said profitable)

There’s about 10,000 obstacles to attain this, but it was the thought I had when realizing that I too am a land owner.

I just wouldn’t give it a name that could be problematic, and if my ‘safe’ name ever became an issue, we’d change it. Simple as that.

Em

47 acres may be enough for the parking :winkgrin:

[wildlifer]

@Meshach

Why did The Fork Stables in NC stop holding events? What an amazing venue that was.

I used to volunteer at this event when it was a WC***. Even at that time, I heard property owners yell at UL riders multiple times for riding on the grass instead of riding their Olympic horses down the (very poky) gravel road, among other strange things. It was an odd dynamic & it seemed like priorities were not exactly compatible. I stopped volunteering there because in addition to that being unpleasant, volunteers were not treated very well (I don’t expect to be worshipped, but I do need basic courtesy & some form of sustenance in order to judge 300+ horses).

I don’t know if landscaping eventually trumped horse feet, since I was not part of the organizing committee for that particular event, but the event technically does still exist in name & is still in NC, it was, however, moved to Tryon when that facility was built.

[Rackonteur]

@beowulf

There is an increasing trend in my area, which is not an area known for good footing, for riders to want a H/J style tract, perfectly manicured, not too challenging, no mud or hard ground.

LOL it is high time such “hunter” riders changed their name. Hunter courses used to represent the sort of obstacles real hunters would expect to find in the field – and still do. –

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[Xctrygirl]

@Equibrit

47 acres may be enough for the parking :winkgrin:

Trust me like I said there are challenges but at least I would be willing to consider it.

Also… it would take a few years to get grass on the fields instead of crops… So not an instantaneous thing.

But, you can see in the satellite pic here the size of my 2+1 (red arrow) relative to the size of 47 acres. So we might be able to squeeze at least 20 trailers in. LOL

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1ETAxVzraDhjz5Ax9

If memory serves I think Olde Hope is on less or equivalent acreage.

Em

[frugalannie]

Nice Place! Congratulations. Maybe if you do something in the fall after crops are harvested you could use some abutting land too?

[Xctrygirl]

@frugalannie

Nice Place! Congratulations. Maybe if you do something in the fall after crops are harvested you could use some abutting land too?

Unlikely… That’s a corn field that belongs to the neighboring Nursery. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe being able to park on it but the corn stalk bases are no fun to have horses walking on.

Em

[trubandloki]

Do you have access to your land without going thru the neighborhood that you appear to be at the end of?

I wonder if your neighbors would have an issue with lots of event traffic.

[Xctrygirl]

@trubandloki

Do you have access to your land without going thru the neighborhood that you appear to be at the end of?

I wonder if your neighbors would have an issue with lots of event traffic.

The long narrow strip is my property and is the access route onto the main fields etc. So yes… It’s good to drive on most of the year. Except if it deluges… But if this became serious we would likely reinforce that for driving.

My neighbors are a lovely bunch that would be consulted about this as a possibility LONG before it became an actuality. We’re actually a really tight knit community. They think it’s cool when I bring my horses over to ride. But of course there’s a world of difference compared to 100+ horses and trailers on a single day

Em

[trubandloki]

@Xctrygirl

But of course there’s a world of difference compared to 100+ horses and trailers on a single day

Em

Don’t forget the additional traffic associated with all the volunteers necessary to put on something like this. Add that in too.

[Xctrygirl]

@trubandloki

Don’t forget the additional traffic associated with all the volunteers necessary to put on something like this. Add that in too.

Oh I know it well. Only evented from '84-I think my last event was '15. And I have volunteered a lot over the years, admittedly not as much recently, but this is again… at best a hypothetical.

That said, it’d be fun to help give folks a place to learn. Even in my own head I would probably be thinking of Tadpole - TN (training D & St, N xc). And if I had anything to contribute it would be a course without 65% table/table like fences.

Em

[Janet]

First of all, in Eventing (and most horse sports), the abbreviation “LO” means “licensed official”. It made you post very confusing to read.

am based in Area II, but I have officiated on both coasts and in the middle. I went to my first USCTA Horse Trials in 1971, and have been actively involved in Eventing since 1981, as a rider, a volunteer, an organizer, member of the Board of Directors of a CTA, national coordinator for USEA Affiliates, member of the area council, and member of the USEA Membership Development Committee. In all of those roles I have paid attention to the rise and fall of the number of Horse Trials.

We go through cycles. There are times (and places) when there are more entries than Horse Trials, and you have to get your entry in ON opening day to have any chance of getting in. In this phase more HT are started. There are other times when there are more Horse Trials than entries, and organizers are begging for entries well after the closing date. in this phase more HT end.

There are many causes for HT to end, aging organizers with no “succession plan”, sale of property (or landowner no longer interested), increasing requirements and expectations (safety cups in show jumping, frangible fences in cross country, footing expectations, etc.). But in the long run the dominant factor is “supply and demand”. We are now in a phase where the number of events is decreasing in some areas. But I have no doubt that we will see an increase in HT once the demand exceeds the supply.

[FitzE]

@Xctrygirl

Radnor is not gone, but the 3 day is. However they still run recognized lower level events. They just got an indoor and I’ve gone there many times for jumper shows as a local hunter jumper series holds MANY shows there in a year.

I don’t recall why Chesterland ended. The farm still exists and now Buck is based out of there.

Em

Thanks! Ages ago when I was in the area I drove past the Hunt grounds and saw some of the fences still there (or maybe I shouldn’t say still; maybe they were new). I wonder if Buck would want to bring back Chesterland?

[OverandOnward]

@beowulf

Just so you know I’m putting my money where my mouth is, while I’ve never competed at Poplar, I have competed at southern events in late summer (I did N and T, although neither were recognized), and the ground was hard enough to be slippery. My horse was perfectly fine.

I am sure there are different considerations for different climates, but I was referring to Area I. :encouragement:

I understand why an UL rider might be selective with the footing they subject their UL horses to. Those horses are working ten times harder than a BN horse and there is a definite safety element involved with footing leading up to a big fence. That’s very different than the BN/N/T horses/riders.

The venues in my area aren’t limping along because they don’t have enough UL rider patronage - they’re limping along because they don’t have enough BN/N attendance. There is an increasing trend in my area, which is not an area known for good footing, for riders to want a H/J style tract, perfectly manicured, not too challenging, no mud or hard ground.

That’s not really what eventing is, in my perspective. No one is expecting eventers to jump a four foot fence in swampy footing, but some variation from “perfectly good turf” should be accepted. I’m not referring to dangerous footing here - just footing that is a little deviation from ideal…

I just thought I’d clarify some of my prior remarks about the necessity some horse trials have of doing some grooming on footing, because of the big blocks of entries that come with certain trainers and their higher-level riders. Around here, T and up seems to be very picky about footing.

The few BNT’s who bring a nice block of entries definitely bring a lot of BN/N. And yes, BN/N is the core of the sustainability of the event. My point was that these blocks of BN/N’s follow the trainer and T+ riders who follow the footing. The BNT/UL’s literally do follow the footing, and will travel out of state, out of Area, if they think it’s better elsewhere. Carrying their trailer-loads of BN/N’s with them. This has been a core reality of several of the events in certain places.

It’s been a bit discouraging that events, and even an Area, puts resources into the T-P-I courses to attract the most accomplished AA/Jr riders. And then sees FB photos & posts that the most ambitious riders are in Florida for the season. (Or somewhere that isn’t ‘here’, wherever ‘here’ is.)

The BNT’s BN/N students can certainly load up their own 2-horse/3-horse and go to whatever horse trials they wish. Occasionally some do. But for the most part they seem to prefer to load up in the BNT’s big trailer along with the rest of the barn, that is headed off to … wherever.

[OverandOnward]

@Janet

First of all, in Eventing (and most horse sports), the abbreviation “LO” means “licensed official”. It made you post very confusing to read.

am based in Area II, but I have officiated on both coasts and in the middle. I went to my first USCTA Horse Trials in 1971, and have been actively involved in Eventing since 1981, as a rider, a volunteer, an organizer, member of the Board of Directors of a CTA, national coordinator for USEA Affiliates, member of the area council, and member of the USEA Membership Development Committee. In all of those roles I have paid attention to the rise and fall of the number of Horse Trials.

We go through cycles. There are times (and places) when there are more entries than Horse Trials, and you have to get your entry in ON opening day to have any chance of getting in. In this phase more HT are started. There are other times when there are more Horse Trials than entries, and organizers are begging for entries well after the closing date. in this phase more HT end.

There are many causes for HT to end, aging organizers with no “succession plan”, sale of property (or landowner no longer interested), increasing requirements and expectations (safety cups in show jumping, frangible fences in cross country, footing expectations, etc.). But in the long run the dominant factor is “supply and demand”. We are now in a phase where the number of events is decreasing in some areas. But I have no doubt that we will see an increase in HT once the demand exceeds the supply.

Thank you for this analysis. It makes a lot of sense.

What I read into this is that it is about growing the sport, wherever we live. How many locals are riding, and what kind of riding do they do? What would it take to get them interested in eventing?

Some trainers/coaches/instructors/barns are better at this than others. At getting attention in the community and attracting those that can afford it out to their barns. People who have ridden before, and people who haven’t.

The great thing about LL eventing is that many people and horses can do it, so long as they have sufficient interest and will do the work. They do not have to be exceptional athletes, just dedicated and have the mind for a bit of a challenge. The basic tack and gear is not hard to come by (as long as there is a good market for used goods). The variety of horses and people in BN/N is always a thrill to me. (And the add-on divisions below that, down to speed bump.)

I live in an area with LOTS of horses. One of the highest per capital horse areas in the U.S. The trick is that eventing is not well known. It’s about figuring out how to ease people in to eventing. Introduced in the right way, eventing has a way of taking hold of people who ride. :yes:

I’m always recruiting. The local population is lucky that it is against the law for me to just throw people in the car and drive them to a horse trials so they can see it, whether they want to go or not. :winkgrin:

[Alpha_Mare]

Xctrygirl - you have exceeded your limit on private messages.

Tried to tell you - if you host an event where money changes hands you’ll likely need to go through the Conditional Use process (in Chester County) run by your township because it is considered ‘commercial’. Suggest you check that out before going too far. They will want to know that a fire truck and ambulance can get in/out if an emergency, as well as traffic and parking.

[initiate1987]

I’m curious, as someone who would love to own enough land to host an event someday, how much land do you need? Ideally to host, say BN-P. Would it change much to add the FEI levels? Purely curious.

[Mango20]

@OverandOnward

Thank you for this analysis. It makes a lot of sense.

What I read into this is that it is about growing the sport, wherever we live. How many locals are riding, and what kind of riding do they do? What would it take to get them interested in eventing?

Some trainers/coaches/instructors/barns are better at this than others. At getting attention in the community and attracting those that can afford it out to their barns. People who have ridden before, and people who haven’t.

The great thing about LL eventing is that many people and horses can do it, so long as they have sufficient interest and will do the work. They do not have to be exceptional athletes, just dedicated and have the mind for a bit of a challenge. The basic tack and gear is not hard to come by (as long as there is a good market for used goods). The variety of horses and people in BN/N is always a thrill to me. (And the add-on divisions below that, down to speed bump.)

I live in an area with LOTS of horses. One of the highest per capital horse areas in the U.S. The trick is that eventing is not well known. It’s about figuring out how to ease people in to eventing. Introduced in the right way, eventing has a way of taking hold of people who ride. :yes:

I’m always recruiting. The local population is lucky that it is against the law for me to just throw people in the car and drive them to a horse trials so they can see it, whether they want to go or not. :winkgrin:

Part of the recruiting is getting them when they’re kids, hopefully before they and their parents have been sucked into the H/J machine. The best way to do that is get the kids to join Pony Club. PC’s numbers have declined over the years, which means fewer child eventers. In our club, kids like to do all the available rallies, so their training level event horse just might also be going to the show jumping, dressage, tetrathlon, polocrosse and games rallies. One of our club’s ponies even went to championships for every discipline, with 3 different riders over the years. One training level event horse rocked it at the games rally. If you get kids doing eventing as ONE of the things they do, it’s usually the case that it becomes their favorite thing to do, and you keep them as adult eventers.

[Highflyer]

@initiate1987

I’m curious, as someone who would love to own enough land to host an event someday, how much land do you need? Ideally to host, say BN-P. Would it change much to add the FEI levels? Purely curious.

It depends a bit on the layout (how flat/useable the land is, how well you lay things out to maximize use) but for a recognized event-- 2 dressage rings, warm-up, jump ring and warm-up, xc and warm-up, parking for 50-75 trailers, etc.? Likely 40-50 acres minimum for a one day with stabling off-site and pretty much all the space used. If you have to add the FEI stuff stabling and the longer courses and tents and spectators and etc., two or three times that, plus not just a really big field but also a lot more infrastructure (rings, at least some paved area, etc.)