Spruce Meadows - the horse who gave his all

[TequilaMockingbird]

@LuvRedHeads

I was confused by the ownership issue too, and what role Eye Candy Jumpers played, until I read their FB post:

“I do not own Carollo, I was acting as manager that week and the four weeks prior. If I could roll back time, I would not have posted that [Instagram] story—and needless to say, I am retiring myself from that medium. But would not posting the story have made any difference? Possibly not, as the afflicted individual is very determined, for reasons I would feel petty repeating, because, well—they are. But the hardest part for me is seeing all the harsh, vindictive words directed at Andy. Andy pulled off an incredible win on a difficult horse. Should he or should he not have entered the derby? Should he or should he not have pulled up? It’s really not for me to say. I know he had a bad round, that happens. But I also know: Carollo is not and was not injured, Carollo was not overly fatigued, Carollo is an elite athlete with extraordinary stamina in top physical shape who had a planned month-long break coming right after Spruce. I will also say that Andy is my rider. We collaborate in the care and management of my horses, something I am involved with on a daily basis. I admire his talent, independence, persistence, and work ethic. I stand with him.”
”‹”‹

That is infuriating to read. The video clearly shows that he was overly fatigued. Otherwise he wouldn’t have been tearing down the course and looking like Stretch Armstrong coming down the hill. Your horse shouldn’t look like his legs are made of rubber. I couldn’t believe Andy forced him down that bank. It was horrifying to watch. You don’t need to tell me what he was or wasn’t. I have two eyeballs and a brain TYVM.

[awesomenessity]

@eclipse

Well I wouldn’t give Jay Duke the time of day either! Plus he was rushing to Andy Kochers defence on a few fb posts…just blech!

Oh, I’m no friend of Jay’s myself Just saw it on FB and thought you guys would be interested in some of Andy’s replies haha.

[DMK]

@Mac123

He may have felt strong in his hand, but he sure looked tired and dull. And coming from a mare who feels super strong and unrideable when she IS tired…I’d still bank on the fact that the horse was exhausted and it.was.too.much.

My experience is that when they are tired, they are strong and heavy in your hand, because that’s what “carrying a horse around a course” feels like. But you know, I’m just an ammie that moved on to a different discipline and learned this applies to more than one horse sport. Oh wait, shouldn’t an ULR know that too?

[fatappy]

I didn’t see the round, but having watched Andy at my local shows for a significant portion of my junior years, I have a good feeling of what it looks like.

http://www.horseshowdiva.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3572
Not that I trust horseshow Diva as the most reliable source, but I was at Brownland when this happened.

I am just glad his antics and ethics are finally being called into question.

[RainWeasley]

@RugBug

It’s the timing that makes it all bad. They knew he was tired…and made jokes about it instead of being concerned. I make jokes about the horses I ride, but not when it’s a direct result of my decision making.

What I don’t get, is the Eye Candy chick posted a clip of another sleepy horse that went on to ride right after and was fine to “prove” that Carollo wasn’t too tired to compete and was just sleepy…but the pony she posted was just relaxed, yawing, licking, chewing, sleepy eyes but still moving around. Carollo in that video…he just looked dead tired, like he needed a good ten hour nap before being able to function. He wasn’t moving around at all beyond an ear flick or two. Just kind of empty, glazed over, hooded eyes. To be fair, he could just have been waking up from a really deep sleep, but I would have been at least a bit concerned…

[caffeinated]

@RainWeasley

What I don’t get, is the Eye Candy chick posted a clip of another sleepy horse that went on to ride right after and was fine to “prove” that Carollo wasn’t too tired to compete and was just sleepy…but the pony she posted was just relaxed, yawing, licking, chewing, sleepy eyes but still moving around. Carollo in that video…he just looked dead tired, like he needed a good ten hour nap before being able to function. He wasn’t moving around at all beyond an ear flick or two. Just kind of empty, glazed over, hooded eyes. To be fair, he could just have been waking up from a really deep sleep, but I would have been at least a bit concerned…

One thing that always fascinates me is how many people in this industry have NO IDEA how to handle a crisis and communicate in a way that doesn’t just fan the flames. “Hey, we did something stupid and are getting called out, all I have to do is be honest and humble about it and lie low for a bit, but instead, let me grab some gasoline and douse myself in it and grab some matches!”

I swear.

Maybe I need a career change, to “equestrian train wreck crisis manager”

[Mac123]

@DMK

My experience is that when they are tired, they are strong and heavy in your hand, because that’s what “carrying a horse around a course” feels like. But you know, I’m just an ammie that moved on to a different discipline and learned this applies to more than one horse sport. Oh wait, shouldn’t an ULR know that too?

I’m beginning to think us ammies aren’t as lacking as this sport would make us believe…

I mean a tired horse being dead and heavy in the hand is NOT a unique concept. I’ve learned the hard way that if I over prepare (and by prepare, I mean warm up! no drugs, no longing except to stretch her legs!) my mare and she gets tired, we lose about 80% of our rideability…and her with no rideability = beast. :eek: I’ve left my best horse in the warmup ring one too many times and am now very cautious to leave her slightly fresh if anything. It’s tough as a rider because I’ve timed it perfect if I still feel a bit under-prepared entering the show ring, and her too fresh = lots of spooks…but isn’t that the fun of the sport, figuring all those tiny nuances out? Figuring out exactly how to bring the very best out in our horses?

I’ve also scratched on the last day of a show because I just knew it wasn’t there. Apparently I should have waited to see if our score was going to be competitive before making that decision. :no:

[Xctrygirl]

Y’all can shoot me for this but (All of this is out there in many spots, I have ZERO idea if it’s true) if he actually got a 14 yr old groom pregnant and she had a subsequent abortion, how has SafeSport not gotten a grip on him yet?

Researching “Andy Kocher” was truly eye opening. The off site schooling was really the tip of the iceberg. Someone else mentioned ‘blood - letting’ I haven’t run into that story yet.

Em

[LuvRedHeads]

@Xctrygirl

Researching “Andy Kocher” was truly eye opening. The off site schooling was really the tip of the iceberg. Someone else mentioned ‘blood - letting’ I haven’t run into that story yet.

Em

Truly eye opening.

There were comments online about “training devices” I have never heard of and didn’t know existed (and still don’t know if they do). Which is not to say the comments are true. But if so, WOW am I a babe-in-the-woods.

[Mac123]

@Xctrygirl

Y’all can shoot me for this but (All of this is out there in many spots, I have ZERO idea if it’s true) if he actually got a 14 yr old groom pregnant and she had a subsequent abortion, how has SafeSport not gotten a grip on him yet?

Researching “Andy Kocher” was truly eye opening. The off site schooling was really the tip of the iceberg. Someone else mentioned ‘blood - letting’ I haven’t run into that story yet.

Em

Here’s been my revelation of the week…We are we (grassroots types) fighting so hard to belong to the A/Elite circuits when this kind of behavior is so tolerated there? I know there’s plenty of good horsemen showing at those levels, but I’m starting to realize I really don’t want to be a part of a circuit where that kind of behavior goes on…is tolerated and known and everyone just looks the other way.

Maybe instead of fighting to make A shows affordable, we should be concentrating on making our own kick-ass showing fields that aren’t just affordable but are ethical and emphasize good, proper horsemanship - and where anything otherwise just simply isn’t tolerated.

[Xanthoria]

@caffeinated

One thing that always fascinates me is how many people in this industry have NO IDEA how to handle a crisis and communicate in a way that doesn’t just fan the flames. “Hey, we did something stupid and are getting called out, all I have to do is be honest and humble about it and lie low for a bit, but instead, let me grab some gasoline and douse myself in it and grab some matches!”

:lol::lol::lol::uhoh:

[gottagrey]

[quote="“SlamDunk,post:151,topic:459899”]

@no sniveling

I’m wondering if the reluctance of the officials to intervene could have been due to an incident on 7 July, apparently there was quite a commotion when AK was DQ’ed from another class- quoted (sic) from the eye candy page:

[/QUOTE

That was the same class and I believe after the round in question. He has a stop at the jump off the bank and all the rails fell. While jump crew was fixing it looked like he asked to be let out which is what got him eliminated as it was flagged as a closed obstacle

he was eliminated due to a technical issue, not rider/horse ability

[541hunter]

@Mac123

Here’s been my revelation of the week…We are we (grassroots types) fighting so hard to belong to the A/Elite circuits when this kind of behavior is so tolerated there? I know there’s plenty of good horsemen showing at those levels, but I’m starting to realize I really don’t want to be a part of a circuit where that kind of behavior goes on…is tolerated and known and everyone just looks the other way.

Maybe instead of fighting to make A shows affordable, we should be concentrating on making our own kick-ass showing fields that aren’t just affordable but are ethical and emphasize good, proper horsemanship - and where anything otherwise just simply isn’t tolerated.

I’ve seen just as many horrible things done by local circuit and non-showing riders, often out in the open and nobody says a word. I don’t think it’s a question of showing level; for so many it’s a question of willful ignorance and a lack of respect for the animal.

[RugBug]

[quote="“gottagrey,post:192,topic:459899”]

@SlamDunk

he was eliminated due to a technical issue, not rider/horse ability

It could still easily play a part in the decision to E him for the exhausted horse.

[rollingabout]

@marginall

Same ol’ Andy. Before he became “famous”, this is how he made his living. He showed horses into the ground, overfaced them, sold them broken. He was a hack and a bit of a joke. Then he got a little success on a saintly horse and gained some backers and now his antics are on full display worldwide.

I know so many kind, hard-working, horse first, talented women who never get a backer. If you’re a dude, rich ladies fling money at you. There have actually been studies done on people not trusting women with investments.

Now that this is out, can we stop allowing him to announce on live feeds?! I want to throw up anytime I hear him trying to act like this humble, all American good guy. Biggest scam going.

That’s the most sexist , Misandristic comment I have ever read on this forum. A lot of women riders have backers such as Bessie, Laura , Margie, Lauren, Jessie, Jennifer, Eve (and many Global riders). The reason why men get more backing is that the top 10 in the FEI show jumping list are all men.

Here’s an idea. How about YOU back those women riders. Open your stalls to them and pay their way. It’s a great way to give those with talent but no means of Financial support to reach their dreams.

[rollingabout]

@MHM

I think it’s a bit much to expect the officials to stop the horse in the middle of the round in this case. If you watch the video posted on Facebook, it starts around the 70 second mark on the timer, and there were zero faults at that point. So the horse must have gone about halfway around the course without having any faults by then. He started by having a foot in the water and then a jump down over the span of about 30 seconds, before things really went downhill in a hurry. If there was a ground jury, that means a group of officials would have had to discuss it and agree on it and make the call in the space of about 40 seconds before he finished the course.

If there was a jog before the class and the horse passed it, the officials would have been looking to see if he looked sound, not energetic. And he did not appear unsound going around the ring, just tired. To me, that responsibility to pull up after multiple rails on a tired horse is totally on the rider, not anyone else.

I would certainly hope that at a competition like Spruce Meadows, the ground jury would not have been influenced by any sort of dramatic scene from the owner over an elimination on a different horse earlier in the week. I would imagine they have probably seen it all over the years. And then some.

The most sanest post in this thread. Horse started out good but got tired. Andy should’ve pulled him up. I’ve see a lot worse in the Longines GC Tour.

Anybody else remember Amy and Le Samurai?

[jhg140]

@rollingabout

That’s the most sexist , Misandristic comment I have ever read on this forum. A lot of women riders have backers such as Bessie, Laura , Margie, Lauren, Jessie, Jennifer, Eve (and many Global riders). The reason why men get more backing is that the top 10 in the FEI show jumping list are all men.

To be fair, the last three women listed are backed by their parents - Jessica recently started riding for Rushy Marsh but her main horses are her own.

[winter]

I agree 100% with rollingabout and MHM. This was an unfortunate round to watch, but the demands for more intervention from the officials is a slippery slope. The person on this thread asking for the Southern’s email email address? Seriously? As though the top showjumping venue in the world doesn’t know how to run a horse show.

When we begin to allow internet evaluations of rides and what is and is not acceptable riding skill to influence the people on the ground through public pressure, we set a very dangerous precedent for not only the sport as a whole but I’d hazard to guess every single rider on this board. Perhaps the stewards should step in next time you miss into the combination or slam down on your horses back over every fence? Maybe they should eliminate hunters all together for doing 4 classes over fences in a day? Only horses with the correct twinkle in their eye allowed to show?If you can’t ride 10 perfect spots in perfect balance should you be banned from riding? If you know your horse is super fit, should you be allowed to enter more classes than the 2 day/ week rider? Should pelhams be banned? How about double twisted wire? Is a horse that looks tired to one steward one that looks fresh to another? What number of faults is considered acceptable? Different for a green horse, a green rider? A big class, a small class?

There is unfortunate riding and tired horses at every level and at every show every day. 1.60 riders are not exempt from missing distances, over facing their horses, polling, clipping horses legs with 40 blades, excessive use of bits or whips or running their horses to dangerous distances to win a jump off. .9 riders are not exempt from getting left behind, missing distances, leaving out half strides, riding their horse twice a week for 20 minutes then expecting it to show over fences 3 days in a row… Are all of these things, standard issue things at every single A and C level show considered abuse? The reality is, not all horse people would agree on the hierarchy of terrible things, and that presents a problem for enforcement.

Some horses don’t have a great time at the horse show, and we should endeavor as a community to do everything possible to make sure that is minimized, but as soon as you start basing that on nuances of what is subjectively considered good or bad riding, a tired or fresh horse, nice or mean tack, it won’t be very long before horses sports are gone all together. How else can you do this but have rules that are enforceable and as quantitative as possible? No blood, no more than 3 FEI classes/wk, no excessive use of whip, jog before big classes, no performance enhancing drugs ect…Collectively everyone should want to do better for every horse every day, not just this horse on that day because they got to watch a video on the internet.

[StandwithDart]

As the horse community is all openly discussing horse abuse, here is my story https://www.instagram.com/standwithdart/

[ktm_here]

https://jayduke.com/the-kocher-controversy-an-interview-with-andy-kocher/